00:00:11.594 --> 00:00:16.308
(applause)
(indistinct chatter)

00:00:16.474 --> 00:00:19.227
(crowd cheering)

00:00:20.562 --> 00:00:24.107
♪ If they ask me I could write a book ♪

00:00:24.107 --> 00:00:27.319
♪ About the way you walk and whisper ♪

00:00:27.319 --> 00:00:29.362
♪ And look ♪

00:00:29.362 --> 00:00:31.781
♪ Then the world discovers ♪

00:00:32.657 --> 00:00:35.493
♪ How our book ends ♪

00:00:35.493 --> 00:00:40.165
♪ How to make a marriage begin ♪

00:00:40.165 --> 00:00:41.791
- [Off Camera] Oh, very sweet.

00:00:41.791 --> 00:00:44.461
(upbeat music)

00:00:45.503 --> 00:00:47.714
♪ If they ask me, ♪

00:00:47.714 --> 00:00:51.176
♪ I could write a book ♪

00:00:51.176 --> 00:00:56.181
♪ About the way you
walk, whisper and look. ♪

00:00:58.141 --> 00:01:03.146
♪ I could write a preface on how we met ♪

00:01:04.522 --> 00:01:06.608
- [Interviewer] Do you believe
in love at first sight?

00:01:06.608 --> 00:01:07.817
- Yes.
- Yes.

00:01:12.822 --> 00:01:15.909
- March 19th, 1977,

00:01:18.244 --> 00:01:21.706
I was living in an artist's
loft of the Bowery.

00:01:22.582 --> 00:01:25.710
It was a large loft, it had a skylight.

00:01:25.710 --> 00:01:27.587
It was very hot in the summer

00:01:27.587 --> 00:01:28.963
and very cold in the winter.

00:01:31.132 --> 00:01:33.301
I was editing Signs at that time

00:01:33.301 --> 00:01:36.137
and we really wanted to set
up international networks.

00:01:38.139 --> 00:01:40.892
And so if you walked in

00:01:40.892 --> 00:01:43.895
from any place in the world,

00:01:43.895 --> 00:01:47.816
Antarctica or the Arctic Circle,

00:01:47.816 --> 00:01:48.942
we wanted to see you.

00:01:48.942 --> 00:01:51.194
We wanted to find out what was going on.

00:01:51.986 --> 00:01:55.448
And Liz was in the United States,

00:01:55.448 --> 00:01:56.825
from Adelaide, Australia,

00:01:56.825 --> 00:01:58.993
on a Fulbright to study music.

00:01:59.953 --> 00:02:03.540
And I invited her to come for a drink.

00:02:03.957 --> 00:02:05.667
- [Interviewer] How did
you get to that loft?

00:02:05.667 --> 00:02:08.211
- You mean, you're giving
me a chance to edit that?

00:02:10.213 --> 00:02:14.634
I arrived in New York,
prepared to be dazzled,

00:02:14.634 --> 00:02:16.719
but utterly exhausted.

00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:18.263
And it's summer in Australia

00:02:18.263 --> 00:02:19.973
and it's winter in New York.

00:02:21.182 --> 00:02:24.102
So I arrived in Kennedy and it's snowing.

00:02:24.102 --> 00:02:26.187
And this is the first snow for me.

00:02:27.397 --> 00:02:28.648
I was enchanted.

00:02:30.275 --> 00:02:32.360
And I got a cabby.

00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:35.864
And as we drove past, I
remember Madison Avenue

00:02:35.864 --> 00:02:38.533
and all the canopies and
the uniform door men,

00:02:38.533 --> 00:02:41.828
and I thought, "This is Operetta!"

00:02:42.787 --> 00:02:46.624
I was a specialist in grand opera,

00:02:46.624 --> 00:02:51.546
so this was really
theatrical and stupendous.

00:02:51.546 --> 00:02:54.632
And I was invited to stay, initially,

00:02:54.632 --> 00:02:56.885
with the professor who'd invited me.

00:02:56.885 --> 00:03:01.639
Arriving at his huge apartment
overlooking Central Park,

00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:05.393
I thought it was the most
gorgeous place in the world.

00:03:05.393 --> 00:03:08.229
And there was an Australian guy there.

00:03:08.229 --> 00:03:10.773
He said, oh, just drop your bag.

00:03:10.773 --> 00:03:13.067
We hopped on the subway,

00:03:13.067 --> 00:03:15.945
we get off in Times Square, 1977.

00:03:17.322 --> 00:03:21.701
Filthy peep shows everywhere, flashers,

00:03:23.036 --> 00:03:26.498
but I said to myself, this
is where I've gotta be.

00:03:28.833 --> 00:03:30.793
So there I was in New York

00:03:30.793 --> 00:03:32.921
and I'd been in the city, I think,

00:03:32.921 --> 00:03:35.048
for a month or five weeks.

00:03:35.048 --> 00:03:39.344
So I'd been in many strange
lofts and tiny apartments.

00:03:40.303 --> 00:03:43.640
So I remember walking up
the stairs in my Frye boots,

00:03:43.640 --> 00:03:45.433
which I thought were the ants pants,

00:03:46.601 --> 00:03:48.144
and British bobby's cape,

00:03:48.144 --> 00:03:50.021
which I'd bought at Army and Navy,

00:03:51.272 --> 00:03:52.857
and meeting Catharine.

00:03:54.776 --> 00:03:57.403
And the drink extended to dinner.

00:03:57.403 --> 00:04:00.114
- We had marinated steak and asparagus.

00:04:00.114 --> 00:04:02.033
Then I said, well, if
you're going to be here,

00:04:02.033 --> 00:04:04.452
you're gonna have to watch
"The Mary Tyler Moore Show,"

00:04:04.452 --> 00:04:06.704
because it's an American moment.

00:04:06.704 --> 00:04:10.375
An American icon is having her last show.

00:04:12.293 --> 00:04:13.920
- I don't have a job as of Monday.

00:04:13.920 --> 00:04:15.296
- Oh, we know.

00:04:15.296 --> 00:04:16.714
Lou told us when he called.

00:04:16.714 --> 00:04:19.259
Yeah, it's obviously a case
of sexual discrimination.

00:04:19.259 --> 00:04:20.593
- Oh, no, no. Phil.

00:04:20.593 --> 00:04:22.262
They fired the guys too.

00:04:22.262 --> 00:04:23.763
- Oh, Mary, you little goose!

00:04:25.056 --> 00:04:27.183
It was just to cover their tracks.

00:04:27.183 --> 00:04:29.894
- [Kate] So we watched the
"Mary Tyler Moore Show,"

00:04:29.894 --> 00:04:33.940
and then we just talked
and talked and talked.

00:04:33.940 --> 00:04:37.360
- And then just as I thought
she was really interested

00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:40.238
in the research and I was
doing my dissertation,

00:04:41.864 --> 00:04:43.700
she asked about my children,

00:04:43.700 --> 00:04:45.577
'cause I said I had four children.

00:04:45.577 --> 00:04:48.788
And I had no idea that she was

00:04:48.788 --> 00:04:50.790
the second of six children.

00:04:50.790 --> 00:04:53.084
- Seven.
- Seven children, sorry.

00:04:53.084 --> 00:04:55.962
So she came from this huge family.

00:04:55.962 --> 00:04:58.965
To her, four children was kind of a blink.

00:04:59.924 --> 00:05:03.636
I remember saying to you,
can I tell this story?

00:05:03.636 --> 00:05:05.555
Yes, I must tell this story.

00:05:05.555 --> 00:05:07.724
I remember in the course of
the evening saying to her,

00:05:07.724 --> 00:05:09.225
listen, leaning forward and saying,

00:05:09.225 --> 00:05:11.769
Catharine, don't get the wrong idea.

00:05:12.729 --> 00:05:15.523
I have four children, but I'm also a dyke.

00:05:15.523 --> 00:05:18.401
And she literally flinched.

00:05:18.401 --> 00:05:21.487
She went into a kind of paraxism.

00:05:21.487 --> 00:05:25.992
Because no one was, in polite
circles, was using that term.

00:05:25.992 --> 00:05:28.911
Only raunchy Australians
would say things like that.

00:05:29.829 --> 00:05:32.415
So we then had to move
on from that moment.

00:05:34.751 --> 00:05:38.087
And eventually she sort of said, stay.

00:05:40.798 --> 00:05:42.592
And in the middle of the night,

00:05:43.509 --> 00:05:46.929
she got up on one elbow and she said,

00:05:46.929 --> 00:05:48.765
I think I'm falling in love with you.

00:05:49.641 --> 00:05:52.393
I remember telling myself to keep my head.

00:05:54.103 --> 00:05:55.104
♪ I don't know what it is ♪

00:05:55.104 --> 00:05:57.440
♪ That makes me love you so. ♪

00:05:57.440 --> 00:06:01.069
♪ I only know I never wanna let you go ♪

00:06:01.069 --> 00:06:02.737
♪ 'Cause you started something ♪

00:06:02.737 --> 00:06:04.614
♪ Oh can't you see ♪

00:06:04.614 --> 00:06:08.159
♪ But ever since we met
you had a hold on me, ♪

00:06:08.159 --> 00:06:11.788
♪ It happens to be true ♪

00:06:11.788 --> 00:06:16.793
♪ I only wanna be with you. ♪

00:06:18.002 --> 00:06:19.420
I remember thinking,

00:06:19.420 --> 00:06:21.714
here, I can be who I want to be.

00:06:21.714 --> 00:06:23.883
Here, I can be myself.

00:06:23.883 --> 00:06:27.095
But for a long time I was very confused.

00:06:28.054 --> 00:06:31.808
At school, as a little girl,

00:06:32.642 --> 00:06:35.353
I had what you would call
a crush on our teacher.

00:06:37.355 --> 00:06:40.441
I'd been a tomboy, climbing trees,

00:06:40.441 --> 00:06:42.276
I had clubs of fellow girls

00:06:42.276 --> 00:06:45.029
who were dragooned into my clubs.

00:06:46.906 --> 00:06:48.574
My mother, my father,

00:06:48.574 --> 00:06:52.161
they were very fearful
that I was different;

00:06:52.161 --> 00:06:53.287
not in the norm.

00:06:54.914 --> 00:06:57.041
But I knew there was
something really wrong

00:06:57.041 --> 00:06:59.419
the year after I left school,

00:06:59.419 --> 00:07:02.797
when I was doing psychology
one at Adelaide University,

00:07:02.797 --> 00:07:07.009
and I asked a girl if I could
do a study of her desires.

00:07:07.009 --> 00:07:10.847
It was one of our
required research topics.

00:07:11.889 --> 00:07:15.059
And her father, after he had

00:07:15.059 --> 00:07:17.937
probably listened to my questions,

00:07:17.937 --> 00:07:20.106
actually rushed me out of the house

00:07:20.106 --> 00:07:21.691
and told me never to come back.

00:07:22.608 --> 00:07:24.444
And I began to realize that

00:07:24.444 --> 00:07:26.112
the sort of things that I was interested

00:07:26.112 --> 00:07:28.781
in asking other girls, were taboo.

00:07:30.116 --> 00:07:32.034
As a woman going to university,

00:07:32.034 --> 00:07:34.579
the Adelaide Advertiser
took pictures of me,

00:07:34.579 --> 00:07:37.081
because no one left home.

00:07:37.081 --> 00:07:38.124
I had a flat!

00:07:40.293 --> 00:07:42.837
I mean, I was marked for sin.

00:07:44.756 --> 00:07:47.508
And then as university students,

00:07:47.508 --> 00:07:50.928
Sue Bettison and I were lovers.

00:07:50.928 --> 00:07:53.765
And of course we'd gone out with boys,

00:07:53.765 --> 00:07:55.391
but we were lovers.

00:07:55.391 --> 00:07:58.895
And that, to us, didn't
seem at all deviant.

00:08:00.188 --> 00:08:01.898
But I always assumed

00:08:01.898 --> 00:08:03.733
that I would have children at some point.

00:08:03.733 --> 00:08:05.526
I remember fiercely wanting children,

00:08:05.526 --> 00:08:08.362
because I wanted the family I didn't have;

00:08:08.362 --> 00:08:10.323
a close and loving family.

00:08:10.323 --> 00:08:11.741
And Sue did too.

00:08:11.741 --> 00:08:15.453
So we married business partners,

00:08:15.453 --> 00:08:19.624
Alistair Wood, engineer, Jim Bettison,

00:08:21.584 --> 00:08:23.169
- Administrator.
- Administrator,

00:08:23.169 --> 00:08:25.004
financial officer.

00:08:25.004 --> 00:08:27.298
They would come around to our flat

00:08:27.298 --> 00:08:29.091
in their little sports cars,

00:08:29.091 --> 00:08:31.469
and have coffee or bring us liqueur,

00:08:31.469 --> 00:08:33.054
and then they'd go back to work.

00:08:34.055 --> 00:08:35.389
They knew we were lesbians.

00:08:35.389 --> 00:08:37.934
We said we were lesbians.

00:08:37.934 --> 00:08:41.145
I remember Alistair saying
to me, that's all right.

00:08:41.145 --> 00:08:41.979
That's okay.

00:08:43.523 --> 00:08:46.442
- [Priest] Who giveth this
woman to be married to this man?

00:08:47.527 --> 00:08:49.320
- [Liz] So what would be more logical

00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:50.404
than marrying Alistair,

00:08:50.404 --> 00:08:53.407
who I had always found a romantic figure,

00:08:53.407 --> 00:08:56.577
dark, bearded, mysterious.

00:09:00.122 --> 00:09:02.625
But he was a brilliant mathematician

00:09:02.625 --> 00:09:04.627
and he was a workaholic.

00:09:05.628 --> 00:09:08.172
So Sue and I married business partners

00:09:08.172 --> 00:09:11.676
and Sue and I continued to
create a family together.

00:09:11.676 --> 00:09:13.886
This sounds utterly insane,

00:09:13.886 --> 00:09:16.681
but for two lesbians,
it was quite supportive.

00:09:16.681 --> 00:09:18.391
(child singing indistinctly)

00:09:18.391 --> 00:09:20.226
- [Off Camera] Bloody hell!

00:09:21.227 --> 00:09:22.895
- [Liz] We were a family.

00:09:22.895 --> 00:09:24.939
We lived across the
Parklands from each other.

00:09:24.939 --> 00:09:26.274
We raised these babies.

00:09:27.316 --> 00:09:28.985
- [Children] ♪ They say I killed a man ♪

00:09:28.985 --> 00:09:30.111
♪ Killed a man ♪

00:09:30.111 --> 00:09:31.863
♪ Killed a man. ♪

00:09:31.863 --> 00:09:34.949
♪ They say I killed a man, ♪

00:09:34.949 --> 00:09:36.576
♪ I hit him on the head ♪

00:09:36.576 --> 00:09:38.828
♪ With some bloody leg ♪

00:09:38.828 --> 00:09:41.330
- [Liz] But what really
then kiboshed all of this

00:09:41.330 --> 00:09:43.708
was that once I started seriously

00:09:43.708 --> 00:09:45.877
to examine my feminist beliefs

00:09:45.877 --> 00:09:48.546
and going to consciousness raising groups

00:09:48.546 --> 00:09:50.131
and meeting other women,

00:09:50.131 --> 00:09:53.426
I realized the illogicality
of how I was living;

00:09:53.426 --> 00:09:56.262
that I had two lives.

00:09:56.262 --> 00:09:58.055
I think I was going a little crazy.

00:09:59.015 --> 00:10:00.558
- And I think it all starts, really,

00:10:00.558 --> 00:10:03.102
with an individual sort of awakening.

00:10:03.102 --> 00:10:04.478
- Yeah, why should it be prescribed

00:10:04.478 --> 00:10:05.688
for women to be feminine,

00:10:05.688 --> 00:10:06.522
for men being masculine?
- [Participant] I think we

00:10:06.522 --> 00:10:08.232
we should define what is feminine

00:10:08.232 --> 00:10:10.151
before we even start discussing it.

00:10:10.151 --> 00:10:11.944
- Because when you look at it,

00:10:11.944 --> 00:10:14.822
I think it's a whole way of
relating to other people,

00:10:14.822 --> 00:10:15.907
specifically men,

00:10:15.907 --> 00:10:18.576
not fighting for what you want.

00:10:18.576 --> 00:10:22.246
Femininity is, I guess, a
great pointless martyrdom.

00:10:23.623 --> 00:10:27.043
- [Liz] I was having
the odd fling with women

00:10:27.043 --> 00:10:30.338
and behaving badly, I
would say, on the whole.

00:10:30.338 --> 00:10:33.883
And I think I needed to be
reigned in at that point,

00:10:33.883 --> 00:10:38.137
but I was busting out of the confines

00:10:38.137 --> 00:10:42.516
of this conservative
family that I married into

00:10:42.516 --> 00:10:44.268
and the anxious,

00:10:46.145 --> 00:10:48.731
tense family I had come from,

00:10:48.731 --> 00:10:50.983
and trying to understand
what the heck was going on,

00:10:50.983 --> 00:10:55.029
because feminism was new there too.

00:10:55.029 --> 00:10:58.157
And so this was a ferment of ideas.

00:10:58.157 --> 00:10:59.408
You know, the sorts of things

00:10:59.408 --> 00:11:01.369
that Adelaide feminists were doing,

00:11:01.369 --> 00:11:03.454
was that we were liberating bars,

00:11:03.454 --> 00:11:07.124
Australian bars, pubs, were men only.

00:11:07.124 --> 00:11:10.878
(indistinct chatter)

00:11:10.878 --> 00:11:12.713
- [Patron] Hand away for me, sir.

00:11:12.713 --> 00:11:14.256
- It's not me hand, it's only me finger.

00:11:14.256 --> 00:11:15.841
- Well just remove your finger, will you?

00:11:15.841 --> 00:11:16.926
And I can go and,

00:11:16.926 --> 00:11:18.177
- Well what you asked is,

00:11:18.177 --> 00:11:21.013
what happens when a woman comes in.

00:11:21.013 --> 00:11:22.223
- And we'd march down the streets

00:11:22.223 --> 00:11:23.849
of little old Adelaide.

00:11:25.768 --> 00:11:27.645
I have to say, it was liberating,

00:11:27.645 --> 00:11:31.315
but I'd then go home to the four children

00:11:31.315 --> 00:11:33.067
who were being babysat by my students,

00:11:33.067 --> 00:11:34.443
because I was also teaching

00:11:34.443 --> 00:11:35.903
at Adelaide University at this time

00:11:35.903 --> 00:11:37.780
and doing many other things.

00:11:37.780 --> 00:11:40.282
It was all exciting, but chaotic,

00:11:40.282 --> 00:11:43.869
and there was absolutely no clear path.

00:11:43.869 --> 00:11:46.831
I didn't have the vision
of where I was going,

00:11:46.831 --> 00:11:48.499
until I met Catharine.

00:11:49.583 --> 00:11:50.584
She knew.

00:11:50.584 --> 00:11:52.545
She knew that first night

00:11:52.545 --> 00:11:54.588
what the likely future was.

00:11:58.300 --> 00:12:00.052
- In my time,

00:12:00.052 --> 00:12:03.681
your coming out was scary.

00:12:03.681 --> 00:12:08.519
Right, 3-7-17-26-39-41.

00:12:09.729 --> 00:12:12.398
And part of this, is you
had to come out to yourself.

00:12:14.358 --> 00:12:17.737
And that meant dealing with
internalized homophobia.

00:12:18.696 --> 00:12:21.157
And that took me a very long time.

00:12:22.408 --> 00:12:24.660
Wednesday, June 8th, 77,

00:12:26.662 --> 00:12:28.706
"Well my darling, your letter arrived."

00:12:28.706 --> 00:12:29.540
This is it.

00:12:31.959 --> 00:12:35.212
Coming out to family, very hard.

00:12:37.298 --> 00:12:39.759
- [Interviewer] You got it?
- This is it.

00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:40.593
Work?

00:12:41.802 --> 00:12:43.095
No, no way.

00:12:45.014 --> 00:12:47.808
Between you and my archives,

00:12:47.808 --> 00:12:50.770
everything is now permanently unlocked.

00:12:50.770 --> 00:12:52.605
I've lived with so many secrets,

00:12:53.564 --> 00:12:57.193
and now deliberately, willfully,

00:12:58.152 --> 00:13:00.905
I have said, let all the secrets spill out

00:13:00.905 --> 00:13:04.241
and preserve all this fragile paper

00:13:04.241 --> 00:13:05.701
so the secrets can be read.

00:13:06.702 --> 00:13:08.704
- [Interviewer] Why do
you wanna do it now?

00:13:08.704 --> 00:13:09.997
- Because I'm going to die

00:13:10.873 --> 00:13:14.627
and I don't wanna die with
all this going up in flames.

00:13:18.380 --> 00:13:22.218
Liz and I lived a kind of deep life,

00:13:25.471 --> 00:13:26.305
and

00:13:27.890 --> 00:13:29.141
I want that known.

00:13:32.561 --> 00:13:35.648
(gentle piano music)

00:13:39.068 --> 00:13:40.986
I met Liz when I was 40

00:13:42.154 --> 00:13:44.990
and I had lived a lesbian life

00:13:44.990 --> 00:13:46.450
for several years, by then.

00:13:47.493 --> 00:13:49.203
I'd had relationships.

00:13:49.203 --> 00:13:51.580
I'd had a very long-term relationship.

00:13:51.580 --> 00:13:54.250
I had been through a terrible tenure case

00:13:54.250 --> 00:13:57.044
where my lesbianism had
been used against me.

00:13:57.044 --> 00:14:00.965
So I was no longer this
psychological child,

00:14:00.965 --> 00:14:02.591
saying, what are these feelings?

00:14:03.717 --> 00:14:08.639
I mean, I had, after I came
out, rather a rich life.

00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:10.516
But it took me a long time.

00:14:10.516 --> 00:14:12.518
It took me several years

00:14:12.518 --> 00:14:15.312
before I could come to terms.

00:14:15.312 --> 00:14:19.066
And when I realized I was
a deviant dyke lesbian,

00:14:19.066 --> 00:14:23.320
my fear of being all those bad words

00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:26.866
was the sense of social
ostracism that would come.

00:14:28.701 --> 00:14:30.161
And I went through a passage

00:14:30.161 --> 00:14:32.913
that I think many women of
my generation went through.

00:14:33.747 --> 00:14:35.708
First we were heterosexual,

00:14:35.708 --> 00:14:38.169
then we were bisexual,

00:14:38.169 --> 00:14:40.921
and then finally, we were homosexual.

00:14:42.548 --> 00:14:46.886
There was a passage with stops and starts.

00:14:47.845 --> 00:14:50.347
But I was surrounded by
a feminist community,

00:14:53.309 --> 00:14:55.603
surrounded by people who were coming out.

00:14:58.772 --> 00:15:00.524
I think it also, Greta, has something to do

00:15:00.524 --> 00:15:01.984
with the strength of desire.

00:15:03.152 --> 00:15:05.029
At some point,

00:15:05.029 --> 00:15:09.325
desire to be in the world
where you wish to be,

00:15:11.076 --> 00:15:15.789
has its own drumbeat, its own flags,

00:15:15.789 --> 00:15:17.917
its own imperatives,

00:15:17.917 --> 00:15:21.045
its own risks and its own rewards.

00:15:23.172 --> 00:15:25.299
And so by the time I met Liz,

00:15:26.300 --> 00:15:27.593
I was a lesbian

00:15:29.178 --> 00:15:30.971
who was aware of desire.

00:15:32.139 --> 00:15:34.183
And I also had, at this point,

00:15:34.183 --> 00:15:35.768
had the nerve to act on it.

00:15:37.603 --> 00:15:40.773
A lot of people came through that loft.

00:15:41.857 --> 00:15:43.525
She was the one

00:15:43.525 --> 00:15:46.362
that I didn't want to
have leave that loft.

00:15:47.404 --> 00:15:50.407
- I was visiting New York for three months

00:15:50.407 --> 00:15:52.409
and I was meeting the most exciting person

00:15:52.409 --> 00:15:54.036
I'd ever met.

00:15:54.036 --> 00:15:56.080
A brilliant, brilliant woman.

00:15:57.164 --> 00:15:59.833
An intellectual leader
of the women's movement.

00:16:01.001 --> 00:16:03.796
And through her, meeting a whole ton

00:16:03.796 --> 00:16:07.675
of the most fascinating women
who were remaking the world.

00:16:07.675 --> 00:16:11.553
I remember, I had read Kate
Millett's book, "Flying,"

00:16:12.846 --> 00:16:15.516
not knowing that she's a character in it.

00:16:15.516 --> 00:16:17.393
I met Millett soon after.

00:16:17.393 --> 00:16:18.227
- [David Frost] Do you not believe

00:16:18.227 --> 00:16:19.478
a woman's place is in the home, right?

00:16:19.478 --> 00:16:21.814
- As feminists, what we
believe in is very simple.

00:16:21.814 --> 00:16:23.857
And that is the social, economic

00:16:23.857 --> 00:16:26.527
and political equality of the sexes.

00:16:26.527 --> 00:16:28.612
Because the relationship
between the sexes is,

00:16:28.612 --> 00:16:30.864
in fact, a political relationship.

00:16:30.864 --> 00:16:32.283
We're an oppressed group

00:16:32.283 --> 00:16:33.909
and we have been through history.

00:16:33.909 --> 00:16:35.369
- I mean, I walked straight into

00:16:35.369 --> 00:16:39.039
the powerhouse of the women's
movement in New York City.

00:16:39.915 --> 00:16:41.500
♪ Here she comes, ♪

00:16:41.500 --> 00:16:43.085
♪ Walking down the street ♪

00:16:43.085 --> 00:16:44.795
♪ Here she comes, ♪

00:16:44.795 --> 00:16:46.505
♪ Coming through my door ♪

00:16:46.505 --> 00:16:48.215
♪ Here she comes, ♪

00:16:48.215 --> 00:16:50.009
♪ Crawling up my stair ♪

00:16:50.009 --> 00:16:51.677
♪ Here she comes, ♪

00:16:51.677 --> 00:16:53.595
♪ Waltzing through the hall ♪

00:16:53.595 --> 00:16:55.431
♪ In a pretty red dress ♪

00:16:55.431 --> 00:16:58.809
♪ And oh, she looks so good ♪

00:16:58.809 --> 00:17:02.229
♪ Oh, she looks so fine ♪

00:17:02.229 --> 00:17:04.773
♪ And I got this crazy feeling ♪

00:17:04.773 --> 00:17:07.568
♪ I'm gonna uh-uh make her mine ♪

00:17:07.568 --> 00:17:10.654
- It was a psychological
ferment, a social ferment,

00:17:10.654 --> 00:17:13.782
an intellectual ferment,
an artistic ferment,

00:17:13.782 --> 00:17:16.160
where all sorts of
conversations were going on.

00:17:17.036 --> 00:17:21.373
In New York, there was place
after place after place,

00:17:21.373 --> 00:17:25.377
where you could go and say
what you were trying to do

00:17:25.377 --> 00:17:28.047
and people would say,
that's beautiful. Do it.

00:17:29.006 --> 00:17:31.842
Wherever you might go,
you would find energy

00:17:31.842 --> 00:17:34.595
and creativity and rebellion.

00:17:34.595 --> 00:17:36.055
And it was there.

00:17:36.055 --> 00:17:40.059
It was a context in which you could take

00:17:40.059 --> 00:17:42.186
what was once thought to be deviance,

00:17:43.103 --> 00:17:47.858
and have it become a way
of living creatively.

00:17:47.858 --> 00:17:50.361
- It was a feminist revolution.

00:17:50.361 --> 00:17:52.988
It was so exciting, intellectually,

00:17:52.988 --> 00:17:57.159
emotionally, politically, sexually,

00:17:57.159 --> 00:18:00.579
that I had to get a grip and say,

00:18:00.579 --> 00:18:02.081
I've gotta go home.

00:18:02.081 --> 00:18:06.210
♪ I'm leaving on a jet plane ♪

00:18:06.210 --> 00:18:10.672
♪ I don't know when I'll be back again ♪

00:18:10.672 --> 00:18:15.677
♪ Oh babe, I hate to go. ♪

00:18:16.929 --> 00:18:20.891
- [Liz] And it was absolutely
glorious to be with the kids.

00:18:20.891 --> 00:18:23.143
All of them were in very good shape.

00:18:23.143 --> 00:18:26.146
I hadn't been gone long
enough for problems to arise.

00:18:27.481 --> 00:18:29.650
And I was trying to work out

00:18:29.650 --> 00:18:31.568
ending the marriage with Alistair,

00:18:31.568 --> 00:18:34.530
but coming to an agreed upon negotiation

00:18:34.530 --> 00:18:36.448
to the future of the kids.

00:18:36.448 --> 00:18:39.868
And I remember, the first
negotiation was very painful.

00:18:39.868 --> 00:18:42.246
I'd been there for about two or three days

00:18:42.246 --> 00:18:44.832
and I raised this several times with him.

00:18:44.832 --> 00:18:46.625
He didn't want to talk about it.

00:18:46.625 --> 00:18:49.586
He was angry, we were sort of fighting.

00:18:49.586 --> 00:18:50.629
I had to get out.

00:18:52.506 --> 00:18:55.634
Long distance phone calls cost a fortune.

00:18:55.634 --> 00:18:56.885
I remember thinking,

00:18:56.885 --> 00:18:58.804
we've had so many phone calls

00:18:58.804 --> 00:19:00.222
I could have flown back to New York

00:19:00.222 --> 00:19:02.808
and back to Adelaide at the same cost.

00:19:05.769 --> 00:19:07.563
Catharine and I wrote air letters,

00:19:07.563 --> 00:19:11.442
which took two weeks to arrive,

00:19:11.442 --> 00:19:13.277
and tapes we would make.

00:19:16.113 --> 00:19:18.574
- [Liz On Tape] Well
darling, isn't it wonderful?

00:19:20.159 --> 00:19:23.328
Our letters and our tapes have met.

00:19:25.080 --> 00:19:29.585
Our great network,
reaching across the ocean.

00:19:29.585 --> 00:19:30.544
Aren't we clever?

00:19:31.795 --> 00:19:33.088
I think we're brilliant.

00:19:34.882 --> 00:19:35.799
Oh darling,

00:19:38.093 --> 00:19:43.098
I have a great, sure, serene sense

00:19:44.975 --> 00:19:46.810
of us lasting together

00:19:48.770 --> 00:19:50.522
for simply ages.

00:19:52.858 --> 00:19:57.196
My octogenarian lover.

00:19:59.948 --> 00:20:01.450
- I was over there and it was agony.

00:20:01.450 --> 00:20:03.118
I mean, we were desperate,

00:20:03.118 --> 00:20:03.952
Catharine and me.

00:20:03.952 --> 00:20:07.247
We were parted. It was unbearable.

00:20:08.207 --> 00:20:09.500
- Do you reckon if I go over there

00:20:09.500 --> 00:20:10.501
for another couple of months,

00:20:10.501 --> 00:20:12.252
you could manage again, couldn't you?

00:20:12.252 --> 00:20:13.378
- Yeah.
- No.

00:20:13.378 --> 00:20:15.714
- No!
- Don't you think it could?

00:20:15.714 --> 00:20:17.591
It went pretty quickly.

00:20:17.591 --> 00:20:18.425
And while you're at school,

00:20:18.425 --> 00:20:19.259
- For you, not for us.

00:20:19.259 --> 00:20:21.470
- No, but listen: while you're at school,

00:20:21.470 --> 00:20:22.513
- I do mind!

00:20:22.513 --> 00:20:25.349
- Knowing that we'd
always be together again.

00:20:25.349 --> 00:20:26.767
- Always. You're not
allowed to part from me.

00:20:26.767 --> 00:20:28.101
- You're right, it's my decision.

00:20:28.101 --> 00:20:29.853
But I have to always consider the fact

00:20:29.853 --> 00:20:31.271
that I love you all dearly

00:20:31.271 --> 00:20:33.524
and I'd prefer you to be with me.

00:20:33.524 --> 00:20:36.818
I had to ask for a credit card

00:20:36.818 --> 00:20:38.529
because in those days,

00:20:38.529 --> 00:20:42.074
married women could
not have a credit card.

00:20:42.074 --> 00:20:43.909
They had to be supplementary
to their husband's.

00:20:43.909 --> 00:20:46.537
That is hard to believe today.

00:20:46.537 --> 00:20:49.206
And I had to get Sue's
husband to organize it.

00:20:49.206 --> 00:20:50.832
'Cause Alastair refused to do it.

00:20:52.626 --> 00:20:54.169
- [Kate On Tape] Tomorrow
it'll be almost four weeks

00:20:54.169 --> 00:20:55.671
since I put you on that plane.

00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:59.591
I'm still stunned that you're coming back.

00:21:01.051 --> 00:21:03.095
It's like a tremendous gift.

00:21:03.095 --> 00:21:04.972
- So I said I was going back,

00:21:04.972 --> 00:21:07.266
and it would be for about four months.

00:21:09.393 --> 00:21:13.522
♪ 'Cause we're women-loving-women ♪

00:21:13.522 --> 00:21:16.316
♪ We’ll sing it loud and long. ♪

00:21:16.316 --> 00:21:19.987
♪ Yeah, we're sisters united ♪

00:21:19.987 --> 00:21:24.992
♪ And the love is oh-so strong ♪

00:21:25.075 --> 00:21:26.910
♪ Some say our craze is ♪

00:21:26.910 --> 00:21:29.830
♪ an Amazon phase ♪

00:21:29.830 --> 00:21:33.709
♪ But soon they'll see ♪

00:21:33.709 --> 00:21:36.253
♪ That we're women-loving-women ♪

00:21:36.253 --> 00:21:39.423
♪ And that's all we'll be ♪

00:21:39.423 --> 00:21:40.465
- And when I came back,

00:21:40.465 --> 00:21:43.969
I had an apartment in Charles Street

00:21:45.095 --> 00:21:48.098
and the apartment I was in was
Rita Mae Brown's apartment,

00:21:48.098 --> 00:21:51.101
Rita Ma Brown, famous
for "Rubyfruit Jungle"

00:21:51.101 --> 00:21:54.187
and other salaciously
gorgeous lesbian novels

00:21:54.187 --> 00:21:55.939
of the early seventies.

00:21:55.939 --> 00:21:57.065
And she would come in

00:21:57.065 --> 00:21:59.109
only for one weekend out of four,

00:21:59.109 --> 00:22:02.154
so I was able to settle in her
apartment in Charles Street

00:22:02.154 --> 00:22:05.657
and get the bulk of volume
two of the dissertation done.

00:22:05.657 --> 00:22:09.911
And it would be those weekly
letters to the children.

00:22:09.911 --> 00:22:12.205
They would make tapes and send them back.

00:22:12.205 --> 00:22:14.499
- [Child 1] Testing,
testing, one, two, three.

00:22:16.627 --> 00:22:17.836
- [Child 2] Mountain Dew.

00:22:19.296 --> 00:22:20.464
Rome, Paris

00:22:20.464 --> 00:22:23.216
- Man with the microphone.

00:22:26.178 --> 00:22:27.554
Join in if you like, mum.

00:22:27.554 --> 00:22:30.140
- And I would try and devise letters

00:22:30.140 --> 00:22:32.476
that would engage them.

00:22:32.476 --> 00:22:35.646
I would write with stuck in pictures

00:22:35.646 --> 00:22:38.565
from magazines or the
newspaper to tell a narrative.

00:22:42.694 --> 00:22:44.946
So at about this time,

00:22:44.946 --> 00:22:46.323
I was beginning to get news

00:22:46.323 --> 00:22:49.534
from my mother and from a neighbor,

00:22:49.534 --> 00:22:53.288
that the family was fraying.

00:22:53.288 --> 00:22:56.917
There were problems and
that I needed to come home.

00:22:58.168 --> 00:23:01.630
- I knew I had to go to
Australia to meet the children,

00:23:01.630 --> 00:23:05.759
because despite the
passion, despite the love,

00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:10.764
if we couldn't be together with
the children supporting it,

00:23:12.307 --> 00:23:13.517
it just couldn't happen.

00:23:14.976 --> 00:23:15.811
- [Child 1] Are we on tape?

00:23:15.811 --> 00:23:17.437
- [Liz On Tape] Yes, I'm making
a tape for Kate Stimpson.

00:23:17.437 --> 00:23:19.398
This is my friend in New
York who's very special,

00:23:19.398 --> 00:23:23.944
who's coming, so you'll have
this real, live American.

00:23:23.944 --> 00:23:25.404
- [Child] Does she talk American?

00:23:25.404 --> 00:23:27.781
- [Liz On Tape] Oh yes, of
course she talks American.

00:23:27.781 --> 00:23:28.824
- [Child] Oh, goodie!

00:23:28.824 --> 00:23:30.575
- [Liz On Tape] Do you know
what they call "herbs?"

00:23:30.575 --> 00:23:31.952
- [Child 3] No?
- [Liz On Tape] Herbs.

00:23:31.952 --> 00:23:34.788
(children laughing)

00:23:34.788 --> 00:23:36.164
- At one point I went to Alistair

00:23:36.164 --> 00:23:37.833
and he was in the study.

00:23:37.833 --> 00:23:41.837
and I said, Alistair, I'm
very happy to go to a hotel

00:23:41.837 --> 00:23:43.296
and not be here.

00:23:43.296 --> 00:23:44.464
And he said, no, no, it's okay.

00:23:44.464 --> 00:23:46.383
It's all right. It's all right.

00:23:46.383 --> 00:23:49.052
- For Alistair, I actually
feel very sorry for him

00:23:49.052 --> 00:23:52.055
because he didn't know
what the heck was going on.

00:23:52.055 --> 00:23:53.390
Or he knew and didn't want to know.

00:23:53.390 --> 00:23:55.267
- But I remember thinking,

00:23:57.853 --> 00:23:59.479
you will get through this.

00:24:01.273 --> 00:24:03.400
You love her very much.

00:24:04.568 --> 00:24:06.194
You want to get to know the kids

00:24:06.194 --> 00:24:08.196
and the kids to know you,

00:24:08.196 --> 00:24:10.615
grit your teeth and get through it.

00:24:10.615 --> 00:24:13.577
- Yeah, but when she came
to Australia that Christmas,

00:24:14.411 --> 00:24:16.455
- The children, of course,
fell in love with her.

00:24:16.455 --> 00:24:18.206
How could they not?

00:24:18.206 --> 00:24:19.750
The big yank.

00:24:19.750 --> 00:24:21.543
- [Kate] I still remember
the presents I took.

00:24:21.543 --> 00:24:23.378
- [Liz] Oh, you were
charming and wonderful

00:24:23.378 --> 00:24:24.755
and they were very excited.

00:24:25.422 --> 00:24:27.758
There were parties of Adelaide feminists

00:24:27.758 --> 00:24:30.802
longing to meet the great attraction.

00:24:30.802 --> 00:24:33.472
♪ I think I'd like to get to know you ♪

00:24:33.472 --> 00:24:37.684
♪ In a special kind of womanly way ♪

00:24:37.684 --> 00:24:40.854
♪ Yeah yeah ♪

00:24:40.854 --> 00:24:41.980
- I went to Australia

00:24:41.980 --> 00:24:45.025
for the purpose of meeting the children.

00:24:45.025 --> 00:24:47.319
If the children had said no,

00:24:48.320 --> 00:24:50.280
then I would've gone back

00:24:51.156 --> 00:24:52.657
and that would've been it.

00:24:54.451 --> 00:24:56.620
- [Liz] In that period, I began to realize

00:24:56.620 --> 00:24:58.246
that the children really needed

00:24:58.246 --> 00:25:01.541
my day-to-day motherhood still.

00:25:02.793 --> 00:25:05.921
And I realized that we
had to fight for them.

00:25:05.921 --> 00:25:07.589
I saw a lawyer.

00:25:07.589 --> 00:25:08.924
I was working things out with you,

00:25:08.924 --> 00:25:11.176
in constant communications.

00:25:11.176 --> 00:25:12.886
I think there were a lot of letters then.

00:25:12.886 --> 00:25:15.806
I had to have a strategy, a plan.

00:25:15.806 --> 00:25:17.432
You can't just ask to have the children

00:25:17.432 --> 00:25:18.809
and take 'em to America.

00:25:18.809 --> 00:25:21.478
And he said, you are going
to need to find a school,

00:25:21.478 --> 00:25:24.815
an apartment which would
be safe and big enough,

00:25:24.815 --> 00:25:26.733
and I needed to find a job.

00:25:28.151 --> 00:25:33.156
- Remember, no lesbian
had ever won custody

00:25:33.281 --> 00:25:35.951
or joint custody of her kids.

00:25:37.536 --> 00:25:40.247
- [Film] Los Angeles, 1974,

00:25:40.247 --> 00:25:43.542
in a child custody case
involving a lesbian mother,

00:25:43.542 --> 00:25:46.086
the judge granted custody
of the women's two children

00:25:46.086 --> 00:25:48.338
to their grandparents in another state,

00:25:48.338 --> 00:25:49.714
despite the children's wishes

00:25:49.714 --> 00:25:51.716
to remain with their mother.

00:25:51.716 --> 00:25:53.510
- Motherhood was rooted, still,

00:25:53.510 --> 00:25:56.263
in the heterosexual family.

00:25:56.263 --> 00:25:59.766
And it took a long time
for that to be shaken.

00:25:59.766 --> 00:26:02.352
And on the whole, women
abandoned their children

00:26:02.352 --> 00:26:04.145
or had them taken away.

00:26:05.355 --> 00:26:07.315
- [Film] New York, 1976,

00:26:08.525 --> 00:26:11.403
a judge transferred custody
of a four-year-old girl

00:26:11.403 --> 00:26:13.655
from her mother to her father,

00:26:13.655 --> 00:26:16.825
saying that a woman has
the right to be a lesbian,

00:26:16.825 --> 00:26:19.911
but that lesbians don't have
the right to raise children.

00:26:21.496 --> 00:26:22.789
- I think part of the reason

00:26:22.789 --> 00:26:26.084
why people in Adelaide,
in the circles were,

00:26:26.084 --> 00:26:28.128
the school parents for example,

00:26:28.128 --> 00:26:30.380
were so appalled by what I was doing,

00:26:30.380 --> 00:26:32.257
was that it shook, in many ways,

00:26:32.257 --> 00:26:35.218
the foundation of their
beliefs in marriage.

00:26:35.218 --> 00:26:37.679
Very few of them were able
to discuss that with me.

00:26:37.679 --> 00:26:40.265
On the whole, I was shunned

00:26:40.265 --> 00:26:43.351
and I was told to my face, often,

00:26:43.351 --> 00:26:44.644
that I was doing the wrong thing,

00:26:44.644 --> 00:26:47.230
that I was destroying Alistair.

00:26:47.230 --> 00:26:49.774
- Oh, but it's also gay men,

00:26:49.774 --> 00:26:52.235
lesbian women, genuine bisexuals,

00:26:52.235 --> 00:26:54.195
not the faux bisexual I was.

00:26:55.030 --> 00:26:57.407
The transgender.

00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:03.121
The threat to heterosexuality

00:27:03.121 --> 00:27:07.167
is just still so fundamental.

00:27:08.501 --> 00:27:11.588
But everybody needs something
to hate, don't they?

00:27:11.588 --> 00:27:14.174
- This is where I'm feeling
myself getting very tense,

00:27:14.174 --> 00:27:16.384
because it is about hatred of change.

00:27:16.384 --> 00:27:19.262
It is about people holding
onto their privileges.

00:27:19.262 --> 00:27:21.014
I'm feeling very tense about it.

00:27:24.517 --> 00:27:28.688
"Mother Right" by Adrienne Rich, 1977,

00:27:31.232 --> 00:27:35.278
"Woman and child running in a field,

00:27:35.278 --> 00:27:38.239
a man planted on the horizon.

00:27:39.324 --> 00:27:42.160
Two hands, one long, slim,

00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:44.996
one small, starlike,

00:27:44.996 --> 00:27:47.916
clasped in the razor wind.

00:27:47.916 --> 00:27:51.169
Her hair, cut short for faster travel.

00:27:51.169 --> 00:27:54.547
The child's curls grazing his shoulders,

00:27:54.547 --> 00:27:58.927
and the hawk winged
cloud over their heads.

00:27:58.927 --> 00:28:03.223
The man is walking boundaries, measuring.

00:28:03.223 --> 00:28:05.976
He believes in what is his,

00:28:05.976 --> 00:28:07.060
the grass,

00:28:08.395 --> 00:28:10.563
the waters underneath,

00:28:10.563 --> 00:28:11.398
the air.

00:28:14.234 --> 00:28:19.155
The air through which child
and mother are running,

00:28:21.074 --> 00:28:23.076
the boy's singing,

00:28:23.076 --> 00:28:27.205
the woman, eyes sharpened in the light,

00:28:27.205 --> 00:28:31.126
heart thumping, making for the open."

00:28:33.753 --> 00:28:34.754
I read that a lot.

00:28:55.650 --> 00:28:57.610
- "I was so very glad to hear from you.

00:28:58.570 --> 00:29:03.033
I'm missing you very much
and it is grim and grinding.

00:29:04.075 --> 00:29:06.828
It is still raining, here in East Marion,

00:29:06.828 --> 00:29:10.623
and the roof is still
leaking over the bed.

00:29:10.623 --> 00:29:12.584
My ear aches.

00:29:12.584 --> 00:29:14.461
I want your body next to mine.

00:29:15.628 --> 00:29:18.590
Please finish up the nasty business

00:29:18.590 --> 00:29:21.217
and win the pretty prizes

00:29:21.217 --> 00:29:22.802
and come back where you belong.

00:29:23.762 --> 00:29:24.596
I love you.

00:29:25.430 --> 00:29:26.347
Your Kate."

00:29:30.852 --> 00:29:33.021
(laughing softly)

00:29:33.021 --> 00:29:37.192
Thursday, June 15, 10:00 AM

00:29:37.192 --> 00:29:39.861
"Hello, best beast.

00:29:39.861 --> 00:29:43.114
I'm sitting in a waiting
room at the family court.

00:29:43.114 --> 00:29:47.368
I'm in my court costume,
black skirt, stockings,

00:29:47.368 --> 00:29:49.329
red low-heeled shoes,

00:29:49.329 --> 00:29:54.125
smart knitted red-white camel
top over a black skivvy.

00:29:54.125 --> 00:29:58.963
Your/our ring, endless cigarettes."

00:30:00.215 --> 00:30:04.177
"Love, listen, the court
can decide against us,

00:30:05.386 --> 00:30:10.266
but it cannot destroy
you; the core of yourself.

00:30:11.351 --> 00:30:13.186
It cannot kill you.

00:30:14.479 --> 00:30:18.399
And darling, darling, when these horrible,

00:30:18.399 --> 00:30:20.443
distraught panics overwhelm you,

00:30:22.153 --> 00:30:24.280
remember that they will pass.

00:30:25.115 --> 00:30:28.451
Small duties, deep breaths

00:30:29.410 --> 00:30:31.746
and memories of your strengths."

00:30:34.040 --> 00:30:35.708
- [Judge] In the family court of Australia

00:30:35.708 --> 00:30:39.045
between Alistair Edward
Rose Wood, applicant,

00:30:39.045 --> 00:30:41.631
and Elizabeth Wood, respondent.

00:30:41.631 --> 00:30:42.674
- [Liz] What I then learned,

00:30:42.674 --> 00:30:44.551
because you'd then have
to give an affidavit,

00:30:44.551 --> 00:30:46.928
your lawyer gets that out of you.

00:30:46.928 --> 00:30:49.556
Alistair's lawyer was
doing the same with him.

00:30:49.556 --> 00:30:52.976
I learned that it was to
be a lesbian custody case,

00:30:52.976 --> 00:30:54.018
for a start.

00:30:54.018 --> 00:30:55.937
That I was an unfit mother.

00:30:55.937 --> 00:30:58.148
That was the term in those days.

00:30:58.148 --> 00:30:59.190
Why was I unfit?

00:30:59.190 --> 00:31:00.859
Because I was a lesbian

00:31:00.859 --> 00:31:03.403
and because I had formed a relationship

00:31:03.403 --> 00:31:07.157
with the so-called Professor
Stimpson in New York.

00:31:07.991 --> 00:31:09.826
So it was clear it was going to be

00:31:09.826 --> 00:31:11.911
a custody case of an unfit mother

00:31:11.911 --> 00:31:14.455
who wanted to go to New York,

00:31:14.455 --> 00:31:16.082
because she had a lover there.

00:31:16.082 --> 00:31:19.127
- The stupidest thing I could have done

00:31:20.587 --> 00:31:23.381
would be no matter how
nicely dressed I was,

00:31:23.381 --> 00:31:26.050
no matter how good my manners were,

00:31:26.050 --> 00:31:28.344
the so-called Professor Stimpson

00:31:28.344 --> 00:31:30.555
to show up in court and sit there going,

00:31:30.555 --> 00:31:32.307
Muah! Good luck, honey!

00:31:32.307 --> 00:31:34.267
- No, I had to be,

00:31:35.310 --> 00:31:37.687
I had to be as invisible as possible.

00:31:37.687 --> 00:31:38.605
- The lawyer said,

00:31:39.606 --> 00:31:43.610
if the judge and the
other lawyers in the room

00:31:43.610 --> 00:31:45.445
see the two of you together,

00:31:45.445 --> 00:31:48.364
they will then see you as a lesbian

00:31:49.532 --> 00:31:51.242
and you are in court as a mother.

00:31:52.285 --> 00:31:54.037
And the first time I went into court,

00:31:54.037 --> 00:31:55.330
it became very clear

00:31:55.330 --> 00:31:59.125
that he was going to ask
for complete custody.

00:31:59.125 --> 00:32:00.376
- [Lawyer] Several years ago,

00:32:00.376 --> 00:32:02.670
she ceased to sleep in
the same room with you?

00:32:03.546 --> 00:32:04.589
- [Alastair] Yes.

00:32:04.589 --> 00:32:05.798
- [Lawyer] And told, by your wife,

00:32:05.798 --> 00:32:08.176
that the marriage was over?

00:32:08.176 --> 00:32:10.595
- [Alastair] Yes, that the
marriage was absolutely all over

00:32:10.595 --> 00:32:12.847
and she had decided she was a lesbian

00:32:12.847 --> 00:32:15.433
and had been for some time, really.

00:32:15.433 --> 00:32:18.853
- "I sometimes feel I'm
supporting everyone;

00:32:18.853 --> 00:32:22.482
as if they all thought I
didn't need support myself.

00:32:22.482 --> 00:32:25.193
What a crazy situation it is.

00:32:25.193 --> 00:32:29.364
No matter which way up or
down you turn it, I'm a loser.

00:32:29.364 --> 00:32:31.324
Either I abandoned my kids,

00:32:31.324 --> 00:32:34.244
or I've ripped the poor
father's life in twain.

00:32:35.078 --> 00:32:38.248
If I show any pain, I'm incompetent.

00:32:38.248 --> 00:32:40.959
If I'm strong, I'm a bitch."

00:32:42.043 --> 00:32:46.673
- "You're under the
pressures of war, real war.

00:32:46.673 --> 00:32:48.800
and you're responding magnificently.

00:32:49.717 --> 00:32:51.844
Ali is mean, isn't he?

00:32:53.137 --> 00:32:55.974
But you know who the enemy is

00:32:56.975 --> 00:32:59.560
and you need not struggle

00:32:59.560 --> 00:33:02.689
under the burden of guilt."

00:33:02.689 --> 00:33:04.274
- What was it that Alastair wanted?

00:33:04.274 --> 00:33:05.191
Because it seemed to me,

00:33:05.191 --> 00:33:06.859
it wasn't anything to do with

00:33:06.859 --> 00:33:09.320
the welfare of the children.

00:33:09.320 --> 00:33:12.907
I had to understand that we were property.

00:33:12.907 --> 00:33:14.200
The children were property.

00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:16.244
This was about the possessiveness

00:33:16.244 --> 00:33:17.829
of the patriarchal family,

00:33:17.829 --> 00:33:19.580
who owns what?

00:33:20.623 --> 00:33:22.625
- "I have just talked to Adrienne Rich.

00:33:23.668 --> 00:33:26.713
I called her yesterday to check in,

00:33:27.630 --> 00:33:28.840
in need of her wisdom.

00:33:30.300 --> 00:33:32.260
I told her the story.

00:33:32.260 --> 00:33:35.471
She sends you courage and strength.

00:33:35.471 --> 00:33:39.017
Men will, when pressed in any way,

00:33:39.976 --> 00:33:42.103
never be reasonable.

00:33:43.855 --> 00:33:46.858
Ali will be as bad as he possibly can be."

00:33:47.859 --> 00:33:50.320
- [Lawyer] Have you mentioned
the word "lesbianism"

00:33:50.320 --> 00:33:51.863
to your daughters?

00:33:51.863 --> 00:33:53.031
- [Liz] Yes.

00:33:53.031 --> 00:33:54.782
- [Lawyer] How have you explained it?

00:33:54.782 --> 00:33:56.659
- [Liz] I don't remember the exact terms

00:33:56.659 --> 00:33:58.244
in which I discussed it.

00:33:58.244 --> 00:33:59.829
When I discuss things with the children,

00:33:59.829 --> 00:34:01.497
it's usually in terms of their age

00:34:01.497 --> 00:34:03.458
and their ability to understand.

00:34:03.458 --> 00:34:04.292
- [Lawyer] I would take it

00:34:04.292 --> 00:34:05.376
that you would not like your daughters

00:34:05.376 --> 00:34:08.296
to become lesbians, would you?

00:34:08.296 --> 00:34:09.756
- [Liz] I think the lasting attachment

00:34:09.756 --> 00:34:12.258
and the long-term
relationship matters more

00:34:12.258 --> 00:34:14.761
than the aspects of what people do in bed.

00:34:15.636 --> 00:34:17.638
That's when I found out about

00:34:17.638 --> 00:34:19.724
who would appear in court.

00:34:19.724 --> 00:34:23.895
And we'd already planned who we needed

00:34:23.895 --> 00:34:25.563
and who had offered to.

00:34:25.563 --> 00:34:27.732
And the first person to offer,

00:34:27.732 --> 00:34:29.776
was the headmistress of the school

00:34:29.776 --> 00:34:31.778
where the three girls went.

00:34:31.778 --> 00:34:33.529
- [Lawyer] I call Mrs. Berman,

00:34:33.529 --> 00:34:36.199
headmistress of the wilderness school.

00:34:36.199 --> 00:34:38.618
- She called me into her office formally,

00:34:38.618 --> 00:34:42.455
and she said, please tell
me, what is a lesbian?

00:34:42.455 --> 00:34:45.708
Greta, her hands were clutching

00:34:45.708 --> 00:34:47.627
the edge of her desk, white.

00:34:48.544 --> 00:34:51.923
And so I told her what I was,

00:34:51.923 --> 00:34:53.383
and we talked about the children.

00:34:53.383 --> 00:34:56.219
And she just, she let go.

00:34:56.219 --> 00:34:57.178
And that was when I knew,

00:34:57.178 --> 00:34:58.805
she would probably be there

00:34:58.805 --> 00:35:00.181
to support me in some way,

00:35:00.181 --> 00:35:01.474
but I didn't know how.

00:35:01.474 --> 00:35:03.309
And I never forget her courage,

00:35:03.309 --> 00:35:05.853
because she was literally shaking,

00:35:05.853 --> 00:35:08.272
falling apart with fear.

00:35:08.272 --> 00:35:09.690
- [Lawyer] Have you, in the time

00:35:09.690 --> 00:35:12.068
their father was solely responsible,

00:35:12.068 --> 00:35:15.822
noticed anything in
respect to the children?

00:35:15.822 --> 00:35:17.532
- [Headmistress] Last year in particular,

00:35:17.532 --> 00:35:19.534
when they were looked
after by their father,

00:35:19.534 --> 00:35:22.662
they were often looking unkept.

00:35:22.662 --> 00:35:25.623
The hair wasn't properly looked after.

00:35:25.623 --> 00:35:27.834
They were very tired and very drawn,

00:35:27.834 --> 00:35:29.836
as though they didn't get enough sleep.

00:35:29.836 --> 00:35:32.255
They often would be
without their school books

00:35:32.255 --> 00:35:33.381
or their music books,

00:35:33.381 --> 00:35:34.507
or their sports gear.

00:35:36.092 --> 00:35:37.885
- "My hunch about the outcome,

00:35:38.761 --> 00:35:40.680
I think I could lose.

00:35:40.680 --> 00:35:44.517
But that if I did, I would
be ultimately winning.

00:35:44.517 --> 00:35:48.938
My other hunch being, that
I would try again next year,

00:35:48.938 --> 00:35:52.817
next year and the next and the next,

00:35:52.817 --> 00:35:53.860
that I wouldn't give up

00:35:53.860 --> 00:35:58.030
what I feel is my natural,
as well as earned, rights.

00:35:58.030 --> 00:36:00.491
And all the time Ali will know,

00:36:00.491 --> 00:36:02.034
and be made to know,

00:36:02.034 --> 00:36:04.454
that I can never be kept away from my kids

00:36:04.454 --> 00:36:06.372
if they and I wish to be together."

00:36:07.665 --> 00:36:09.167
- [Kate On Tape] Just remember darling,

00:36:09.167 --> 00:36:10.877
no matter what has happened,

00:36:10.877 --> 00:36:13.171
we are together and we will fight.

00:36:14.464 --> 00:36:16.883
We will do the best we can.

00:36:16.883 --> 00:36:19.802
We'll let the children be
hurt as little as possible.

00:36:21.304 --> 00:36:25.558
We will not succumb to
this fucking patriarchy.

00:36:25.558 --> 00:36:28.686
We will not give them any more power.

00:36:29.520 --> 00:36:31.647
I love you and I wait for you.

00:36:31.647 --> 00:36:33.232
Goodnight darling."

00:36:35.651 --> 00:36:37.069
- When I got the phone call

00:36:39.155 --> 00:36:41.282
that Liz had been appointed joint custody

00:36:41.282 --> 00:36:43.951
and the family was coming,

00:36:43.951 --> 00:36:45.995
everyone was astonished.

00:36:45.995 --> 00:36:48.456
- "So we've done it, darling.

00:36:48.456 --> 00:36:50.708
We've really done it.

00:36:50.708 --> 00:36:54.086
That bobby-caped woman
you met on the Bowery

00:36:54.086 --> 00:36:55.755
is truly free now,

00:36:55.755 --> 00:36:59.759
and you were absolutely right
in your first instincts.

00:36:59.759 --> 00:37:01.761
And you can absolutely stay

00:37:01.761 --> 00:37:04.096
right there in love with her,

00:37:04.096 --> 00:37:04.931
thank you."

00:37:08.392 --> 00:37:13.356
♪ Who can turn the world
on with her smile ♪

00:37:13.564 --> 00:37:16.025
♪ Who can make a nothing day ♪

00:37:16.025 --> 00:37:18.277
♪ Suddenly make it all seem worth while ♪

00:37:18.277 --> 00:37:21.155
♪ Well it's you girl
and you should know it ♪

00:37:21.155 --> 00:37:23.032
♪ With each glance and
every little movement ♪

00:37:23.032 --> 00:37:25.284
- We were in Washington DC,

00:37:25.284 --> 00:37:28.996
and the three grandchildren
were in the backseat.

00:37:28.996 --> 00:37:31.749
And one says, rather mischievously,

00:37:33.584 --> 00:37:35.336
"Are you two married?"

00:37:37.046 --> 00:37:37.964
And the other says,

00:37:37.964 --> 00:37:40.508
with total contempt for her ignorance,

00:37:41.425 --> 00:37:43.803
"No, they're lifelong partners."

00:37:45.054 --> 00:37:48.266
And at which point, Liz's son,

00:37:48.266 --> 00:37:51.602
now my stepson, whom I just adore,

00:37:51.602 --> 00:37:53.020
- Our son.

00:37:53.020 --> 00:37:56.983
- Said, and why not, you two?

00:37:58.359 --> 00:37:59.193
And

00:38:00.778 --> 00:38:03.030
it was, yes!

00:38:03.030 --> 00:38:03.990
♪ I don't know what it is ♪

00:38:03.990 --> 00:38:06.409
♪ That makes me love you so ♪

00:38:06.409 --> 00:38:09.954
♪ I only know I never wanna let you go ♪

00:38:09.954 --> 00:38:11.664
♪ Cause you started something, ♪

00:38:11.664 --> 00:38:13.624
♪ Oh can't you see ♪

00:38:13.624 --> 00:38:14.834
♪ That ever since we met ♪

00:38:14.834 --> 00:38:17.128
♪ You had a hold on me ♪

00:38:17.128 --> 00:38:20.715
♪ It happens to be true, ♪

00:38:20.715 --> 00:38:25.720
♪ I only wanna be with you ♪

00:38:30.308 --> 00:38:33.561
(gentle country music)

00:38:41.319 --> 00:38:43.863
♪ I am woman hear me roar ♪

00:38:43.863 --> 00:38:46.782
♪ In numbers too big to ignore. ♪

00:38:46.782 --> 00:38:51.787
♪ And I know too much
to go back and pretend ♪

00:38:52.496 --> 00:38:55.124
♪ Because I've heard it all before ♪

00:38:55.124 --> 00:38:58.002
♪ And I've been down there on the floor. ♪

00:38:58.002 --> 00:39:03.007
♪ No one's ever going
to keep me down again. ♪

00:39:04.717 --> 00:39:06.552
♪ Yes, I am wise ♪

00:39:06.552 --> 00:39:10.056
♪ But it's wisdom born of pain ♪

00:39:10.056 --> 00:39:12.600
♪ Yes, I paid the price ♪

00:39:12.600 --> 00:39:15.186
♪ But look how much I gained ♪

00:39:15.186 --> 00:39:20.191
♪ If I have to, I can do anything. ♪

00:39:20.775 --> 00:39:23.235
♪ I'm strong, strong ♪

00:39:23.235 --> 00:39:26.405
♪ I am invincible, invincible ♪

00:39:26.405 --> 00:39:30.368
♪ I am woman ♪