WEBVTT

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[music]

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What is to you the essence of
Gilles Deleuze’s philosophy?

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Connection. Multiplicity. Okay.

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[sil.]

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[music]

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[non-English narration]

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Nothing remains separate and
distinct, everything is flux.

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Connection, the interplay of connections.

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I think, Deleuze as a philosopher,

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doesn’t promote the idea
of a simple fragment.

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He promotes this idea of a multiplicity.

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It gave a strange, silent atmosphere,

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because everybody was concentrating
and listening to this voice.

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But at the same time I find
his books impossible to read.

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You know, that is a lot of
people that have say that.

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It’s really a task, you know,
so set through what I mean.

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I think if you read it with
the intension of meaning

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and trying to understand what’s being said, I think
you miss a lot of what’s great about the books.

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They are trying to, I think,
be as clear as possible.

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But I think it’s as much
about the play of language.

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I read their work much

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more slowly than anything else
I read, literally anything.

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I think he… he wouldn’t
like to have any essence.

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In a way suddenly bending an architecture, cinema
and architecture, philosophy and architecture,

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could have a bond between them.

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Gilles Deleuze is more a wind in
philosophy than some things which took

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a definite shape and a stable shape. All
most every rock you turn over you find a

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little bit of Deleuze there. You find a little
bit of Mille Plateaux that’s someone read,

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its influence, their work in some way.

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[music]

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What is the importance of
Deleuze’s for you, for your work?

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Well, at one time it was almost a
literal lifting of things that…

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And I was reading a lot of Guy Debord and
Baudrillard and, you know, Semiotext people.

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And on… I read On the Line, that was the first
thing I read by Deleuze, which completely

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changed my approach to making
work and thinking about language

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and the way interconnections were made.
So, since

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I’m pretty much an idiot
instead of a great thinker,

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I decided to do a lot of the ideas that
I was reading about the rizoom ideas.

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You know, they are like
a root of the ginger.

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Like a ginger plant there’s a rise that structure,
where every root grows into every other root

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and every stem is connected or totally isolated.
You know, there’s no logic in a straight line.

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[music]

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Making kinds of structures, where
they were based on connections,

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there were based on lots of information from lots of different places that were connected
fundamentally. Oh, that’s beautiful. We’ve A R Rahman and some traditional raga.

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So why not some surf music?

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[music]

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The Chinese opera again.

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[music]

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Okay, we’ll back to…

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See? (inaudible) if it’s perfectly over surf
piece, you know. I’m sure it’s not happy over it,

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anyway. But it was in a matter of books, I mean,
it was something I could see in New York.

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It was something, you know, the window
was open, and I hear salsa coming from,

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in my right ear, and I hear hip-hop coming in my left ear, and I hear the
water pipes making a lot of noise here, and I’m like, \"This is finished.\"

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[music]

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Deleuze’s Schizo-Culture.

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[music]

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So this is the site for the Korean
Presbyterian church of New York.

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We’re a few miles outside of the New York
City in an abandoned industrial zone.

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And this church is gonna hold about
3,000 people in the main sanctuary,

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and 100 classrooms for religious education,

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cafeteria for 1,000 people,

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wedding chapel for 600,
plus administrative offices

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and other support facilities.
Could you describe in short,

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what the idea is behind the Korean church
you are building in Long Island City?

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The building was designed by three
architects in three different cities.

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One architect, Doug Garofalo in Chicago, one
Michael Mclnturf in Cincinnati and myself,

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which I’m living between
New York and Los Angeles.

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And I think the idea that we took as
challenge was to make a church in a factory

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so that you could see it as a church
and also as… as another building.

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It’s a temporary occupation
on an existing building.

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All the structure has to tie, all the new structure
and old structure have to be tied together,

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so that the two of them float independently but
they’re… they’re rigid so that there’s stability

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in both directions. So, we’ve got this guys securing
the old building and the new building together.

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How Deleuzian is in that concept?

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I think, Deleuze as a philosopher doesn’t
promote the idea of a simple fragment,

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he promotes this idea of a multiplicity.

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Multiplicity. Multiplicity. Multiplicity.
Multiplicity, something which is

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smooth and continuous yet differentiated.

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[music]

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So we begin to get a lot of,
sort of, very curvilinear form

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and supple form and folded form, and start
to see the way that different forms

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and tubes move through the exiting
building and begin to… to serve these…

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these objects that are held within
the industrial… Yes, absolutely!

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[music]

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This painting is called

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crystal image in the zone of multiplicity.

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[music]

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This kind of imagery, I’ve been working with
for many years. It’s derived from car manuals.

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It’s diagrams of auto car repairs.

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[music]

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I have these books

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that I’m buying that are
elements from those car manuals,

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and are kind of eluding to on the
one hand that the Duchampian model

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of the chocolate grinder and the
readymade, on the other hand they could be

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they could be connotated with
Deleuzian body without the organs.

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When you look at her paintings,

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they’re very abstract like a
palette, but they are also

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incredibly figural. And I think when she
names them with these Deleuzian terms,

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they become more figural and less abstract.
That’s the edge

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between abstraction and figure.
And… And that’s a Deleuzian idea.

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I kind of reproduce the technological
nervous system of the environment.

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I parallel it as a metaphor. In a way
it’s like a science fiction model.

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[music]

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[music]

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[music]

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[music]

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[music]

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Nothing remain separate and distinct.

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Everything is flux and moving

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as part of a continuum.

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[music]

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In simple terms what is the
essence of his philosophy?

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Multiplicity, that’s… that’s
the right answer definitely.

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One word - multiplicity.

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Imagine the act of imagining, you
know, being able to completely be

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in a continues state of potential. Moving from
one idea to the next to the next to the next

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yet not even going anywhere. These
ideas flow through your mind.

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They… They have a tinted thoughts, those things that attach
themselves to every gesture, every, you know, breath.

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Even, you know, when you pause other ideas,
other words fill that space, you know.

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So, the notion of the rizoom,
the kind of decentered,

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non-hierarchical yet very efficient
method of transmitting information.

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Rizoom, it’s a root, it’s a mass,
it’s a structure that spreads,

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you know, rapidly in different directions. They use that
as a metaphor to describe these kind of thought process.

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You know what I mean? To me,
musically, well I was inspired by was…

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since that, here we have a philosophy
that can be inclusive, intrinsic,

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extrinsic, you know, in-out, up-down, flipped around,
just as the same way I would mix and cut beats,

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and cut and scratch other,
you know, sonic material.

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It was one of the first philosophies that I realized,
parallel what was going on with… with this kind of fragmented

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DJ culture that I call home.

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[music]

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Deleuze is doing the DJ act.

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It’s an ocean of stream of cautiousness.
The mix is something

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that is part of the psychology of what
most people are dealing with right now.

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You turn on the TV, you see
a mix, you hear this film

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(inaudible) you’re having a mix of my voice being printed
to a sound track, my image being printed to an image track.

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Both of them striking some sort
of resonance in your mind track.

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Yeah, and so on, and so on.
And that’s all a mix.

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[music]

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So, yeah.

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[non-English narration]

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And we don’t see systems,
therefore we are at their mercy.

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Just as if you look down and you tie you shoes,
you realize your shoe laces are from Malaysia,

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your shoes are from… fabricated in New Mexico. The street
you are on, the asphalt was derived from something

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made from a dinosaur or something else
that died a couple of million years ago.

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You look up at the sun, the light you’re seeing emanated from
the sun about may be seven minutes before it hits your eyes.

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The light that was made that
hit your eyes is a process of,

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you know, hydrogen and other things
interacting in nuclear processes.

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You blink you eyes, you see red blood, you know, on the back of
your eyelids. To say, you know, you can’t divorce any of these,

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then you look at you watch and you
say, \"I’m late for lunch.\" You know?

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[music]

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For me the idea was this, especially
when I was working with the records,

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turn tables and all appropriated pieces
that there was a fundamental assumption

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that because they were all
interconnected signs and symbols,

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well, any structure would fit with any other…
with any other structure, any structure

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would be connected to any other structure.

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Definitely there’s a certain amount
of finding things that have matches,

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but it’s more about a process of
discovering those connections.

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[music]

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Do you think that you view this
as three at the same time,

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but yet you know that this
is three separate paintings?

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So, your vision is polarized.

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And almost, you know, schizophrenic motion,

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it’s a high speed with strong focus.
So, you are in focus

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on high speed having to look
at the right at the left

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and know that the most important
point is being there.

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[music]

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You know, I mean, someone who’s interested in chaos,
is not too hard to look at some of the cinema ratings.

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[music]

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Deleuze outlined World Wide Webs. I mean, they…
they look at the nervous system, the World Wide Web

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is a kind of externalized human nervous system that, you
know, that’s what the electric networks of the earth were,

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they were the human nervous system.

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That’s a strange concept if
you believe in time and logic

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and all of those things, and it coincides with all the
fractal geometry that went on with a lot of chaos theory.

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So, I think it’s a happy coincidence that

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a nice accident that they all
come together at the same time

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and that’s why I think he’s very relevant now
in a sense and why people are excited about it.

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You know, to move forward and to move backwards are the
same movement. They’re… They’re movements in a direction.

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And if… if there is no logical line that things follow,
they follow this weird rizoom structure, then the line

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that’s going forward is also going
sideways and also going backwards

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and also intertwining with all other
histories. It’s a like an encyclopedia

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of concepts. And it’s a… the kind of book
you can go back to over and over again.

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But there is an idea in…

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in his book on the fold. There is an
idea in… in his book on The Fold,

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which is a book on Leibniz,
where he makes an argument

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that a fold is the singularity that
marks two territories combining.

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So, a folded relationship
is where one organism

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enfolds with another. Or where one organism

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enfolds with a larger context. But
it’s not something you can take out,

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it’s not something separable
from those two regions.

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So, it participates in both, but it also marks a
boundary. You know, it’s… an architectural metaphor,

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it’s an environmental metaphor,
it’s a perceptual metaphor.

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You know, so all of the stuff is
just is involutions and, you know,

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implosions of on a folding whatever. Even the gesture
is like, this kind of a loop, you know, repetition.

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A fold in a sheet of paper is a singularity

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within a continuum. And that’s a
very different concept of space then

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the concept of a point or a line.
You know, in music itself layering

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and repetition access something where
you can build a structure, right,

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you know. You… You take a piece of that structure away
with the silence on a cross fade or on a DJ mixing board,

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the structure is folded in a little
bit on itself. You mix it back in,

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you have another layer over it.
You layer, you layer, you layer.

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Cutting and scratching the same thing, it’s taking elements of
something and splicing it back in. Once you start looking at things

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like this, difference becomes
the implicit so the view point

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that the human mind moves through
at all stages, you know.

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So, it’s the idea that an individual is only an individual because of what they’re connected
to and the differences that they have from others, so the difference becomes important.

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[sil.]

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And… Well, this is our panel.
It has been made by

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the objectile technology. By
the way the name objectile

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was created by Gilles Deleuze
to describe our activity.

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That means it has been calculated on a
computer. You can see here the virtual image,

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which was used to visualize calculations.

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Objectile means a non-standard
object, that means objects,

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we are created in series,

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where each example is similar to the other,

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but slightly different it’s
like these tables here.

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They are all kind of the same thing,

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but they are all different also.

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Here you find all kinds of decorative
wooden panels for different applications.

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They can be partitions,

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they can be sitting slabs, they can be
acoustical panels, they can be (inaudible).

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What Bernard is doing is not only
researching fabrication using the computer,

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but he’s also doing some very sophisticated

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economics, that now for the first
time what he is doing is something

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that your average person could afford to do
where you’d have every piece of furniture

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in your home custom-made. And that’s what
I think is so exciting about Bernard is

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that he is not trying to be an artist
which sells one piece of furniture,

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he is trying to sell 10,000 pieces of furniture
where everyone is slightly different.

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That’s a very Deleuzian idea I think.

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In fact we generate the program and for
that we use mathematical functions

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with parameter which can vary.
All these tables are in fact

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examples of a underrating surface.

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So, there is a kind of inflection
liking all these tables.

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Now you can see under screen beside
the… the still image of this panel.

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You can see the video sequence
from which it is extracted.

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One very simple application of this

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could be for instance if you have to
design doors for an office corridor,

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which is something usually very boring,

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you could have all the doors similar from
the same family but in fact each different.

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We have 6,400 images

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generated in this sequence.

00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:44.999
And this in fact kind of direct application
of the thesis of Gilles Deleuze,

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:49.999
whose name was difference and repetition.

00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:54.999
And you know that… You probably know that
thinking with machines, la pensée-musique,

00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:59.999
was also one of the great
theme of Gilles Deleuze.

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.999
So, I think that all that we are doing is
just a continuation of Gilles Deleuze.

00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:10.000
[music]

00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:39.999
How could you speak about movement

00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.999
as an architect, whereas you could
say a building stands still,

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.999
it is a frozen object? Yeah. Well, the best
example I have is if you build a floor,

00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:54.999
it’s not horizontal, but
that it has a slope.

00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:59.999
People will move down the slope, or they’ll
fight the movement down the slope.

00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.999
But by inflecting a space,
you build movement into it,

00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:09.999
but you don’t actually have to have the
architecture move. So, architects deal

00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:14.999
with stored motion or virtual motion rather
than with things that literally move.

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:23.000
Our visitors, we want to be

00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:29.999
driving and walking and moving
rather than standing still.

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.999
The viewer is supposed to rotate and
look around. The viewer not supposed

00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:39.999
to just focus on the center. Then
the center in itself is fermented,

00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:44.999
transformed, ruptured, and
liquidated both at the same time.

00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:49.999
The utilization of machinery
could be connected to

00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:55.000
the idea of rizoomatism in a 1,000 plateaus
of mutations and rupture and nomadism.

00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.999
Well, I think that nomadism
involves first an idea

00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:29.999
of occupying space through territory
rather than through place.

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:34.999
I think it also invokes
an idea of the tribe

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:39.999
rather than of the individual, that you
don’t think of a nomad as an individual,

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:44.999
you think of nomads. Always
plural, and always a tribe.

00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:53.000
[music]

00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:59.999
And I think that in culture there
is a move towards tribalism,

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.999
and there is move towards

00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:09.999
temporary occupation. And
both of those things are…

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:14.999
are late 20th century phenomenon.

00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.999
Nomadism is implicit in this
kind of urban landscape view.

00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.999
When you look at that screen on
your computer its blank, you know,

00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:29.999
except for any icon you pick, it’ll take
you some place. You look at it, you click,

00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:34.999
you go some place. You are on the World Wide
Web, you type some things, you go boom,

00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:39.999
you’re there, you pick something,
you back, you move, you travel.

00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.999
Nothing remains separate and distinct. Everything
is flux and moving as part of a continuum.

00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:49.999
All of our buildings we design using
animation, so that everything is moving

00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:54.999
and the building slows down
from a position of movement.

00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:59.999
I think it’s the same thing when
you look at Lydia Dona paintings,

00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:04.999
they are dripping and flowing and
eventually, chemically they stop.

00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:09.999
And I think it’s the same thing with DJ
Spooky, that he’s composing an action,

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:15.000
and that eventually that gets recorded and frozen. But that…
that idea of movement is something common to everyone.

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:19.999
Deleuze is a kind of imperceptible
philosopher which creates concepts.

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:24.999
He… He used to say in the
back of all the philosophers,

00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:29.999
his philosophy is like the

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.999
parasite on top of other philosophers.

00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:39.999
Most of the people that I know that get interested in Deleuze,
get interested in him in relation to another philosopher,

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:44.999
like they never have understood

00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:49.999
Foucault until they read
Deleuze on Foucault.

00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:54.999
Or in my case, they never really understood
Leibniz until they read Deleuze on Leibniz.

00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:59.999
So for me Deleuze is always an opening
into some other philosophers’ thinking.

00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:04.999
Its seems as if we’re living at a
Deleuze hype at the moment. Yeah, sure.

00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:09.999
I think… I think that’s happening too.
How to you explain that?

00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:14.999
Part of it is just straight hype. I mean, everyone has
their 15 minutes, some of it is no deeper than that,

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:19.999
some of it is a realization that a
lot of these intellectual cultures

00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:24.999
and a lot of the pop cultures, things
going in dance music, things going on

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:29.999
Avant-garde music, things that are
just going on on television, period.

00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:35.000
A lot of those have been interconnected for a long time
and that the artificial divisions are being dropped.

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:09.999
I was very taken and very fascinated by the
sentence that Foucault said in this book,

00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:14.999
”Language, Counter-memory, Practice”,
the next century is gonna be Deleuzian.

00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:19.999
You can’t not look Deleuze.
I mean, you have

00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.999
to take a position towards Deleuze
or someone like him in philosophy.

00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:30.000
It’s impossible to go back to classical
philosophy after you’ve read Deleuze.

00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:59.999
There’s… There’s a lot of movement for sure,
I don’t know if it goes in any direction,

00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:04.999
but there’s a lot of movement that is happening and
will happen. I think when we… when we start to say,

00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:09.999
\"Ah, yes, these traditions,
ah, they’re 3000 years old!,\"

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.999
But they’re the same as the things that are going on in the dance
floor right now. They’re fundamentally connected in every way.

00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:19.999
And I think when that happens, that can
help to generate a lot of new material,

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:25.000
and new really exciting connections.

00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:59.999
He wouldn’t have liked to…
to constitute a doctrine

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.999
or something like this. He would
just tell you what, do your things

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:10.000
and take support on… on what I’m
doing, but do your own thing.

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:18.000
[non-English narration]

00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:33.000
[music]