WEBVTT

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(screen fizzing)
(gentle music)

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(birds chirping)
(upbeat synth music)

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(upbeat synth music continues)

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(screen bleeping)

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(metal clinking)
(gentle music)

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(gentle music continues)

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- Anyone who spends too much
time on the internet knows

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that the design of an online space

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can profoundly influence the types

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of interactions that occur there.

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The actions your avatar can take,

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your means of communication,
the social rules

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that are enforced and
the kinds of barriers

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to entry in place like subscription cost

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or hardware requirements,
all of these factors

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and more shape the
demographics of a virtual world

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and the ways its visitors
relate to one another.

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Too often the profit motive
twists these design choices

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in directions that damage
community cohesion.

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Unsatisfied by the options
available on the market,

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some small independent developers

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have sought to create
their own alternatives

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to better serve their communities.

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Without the resources
available to large companies

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or organizations, these
creators have found ways

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to operate their own DIY virtual worlds

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with sustainable costs and labor.

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We spoke with a few of these developers

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to learn about their methods, their tools,

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and the ways their communities

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were able to benefit from their efforts.

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(gentle music continues)

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- My name is Paolo Pedercini.

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I\'ve been making leftist
video games since 2003

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as Molleindustria and I
teach video games here

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in Pittsburgh and I also
curate a space for independent

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and experimental video
games called LIKELIKE.

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It looks exactly like this.

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It\'s 20 by 20 feet space.

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It\'s kinda like an empty
room with some video games.

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The long story is that when COVID hit,

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my family was quite close to
the first European epicenter

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in Italy and from the news

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that I was hearing coming from Italy,

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I immediately understood

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that the pandemic was gonna
last quite a long time.

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And so I started pretty early

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to equip myself to have some
kind of like transition.

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And also I already was starting

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to plan an online game development class

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that was both meant to be taken online

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but also about online
world and online games.

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This is the first iteration
of LIKELIKE Online

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and it was made to supplant

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and replace the actual events

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that were obviously interrupted
due to the pandemic.

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This version here was
created for two exhibitions

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that were centered on games
that were like made in PICO-8

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and Bitsy, which are two very DIYs,

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almost like fanzine tools for game making.

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Both of them are working with
tight constrains visually.

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So I decided to make an environment

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that was reminiscent of
this kind of graphics.

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It\'s a very early internet sort

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of like visual chat kind
of experience, right?

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And because it\'s so restrained,

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also the interactions that people had

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were very reminiscent of early internet

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for those of you who have lived through.

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Here we are in the backyard,

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which is also a part
of the physical space.

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The exhibition space tends to
be pretty intense sensory wise

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\'cause it\'s a small space
with big projections

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and a lot of people and so the backyard

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is a little bit of a chill
loud zone, a decompression zone

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and I was surprised to see how even

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in a tiny space like this,

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the backyard was essentially
having the same function.

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I just put it as a joke
putting my dog there,

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hoping that people who are familiar

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with the actual space
would recognize that.

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(gentle music)
This environment

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is a three-dimensional immersive
reproduction of LIKELIKE,

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which is this kind of like a garage

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in the middle of Pittsburgh.

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It is relatively easy
to curate a show online,

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you just send a bunch of links.

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But what I wanted to recreate

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was a bit of the social environment

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of actually entering a space.

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When we have exhibitions in real life,

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we always have a sensory
enhancement experience

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that is connected to the exhibition.

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The idea is to have something
that is not just a audiovisual

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and it\'s usually something that you eat

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or maybe something that you feel or smell.

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We had a show about games about dogs.

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We invited all the dogs in
the neighborhood to show up,

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but also we had dog treats

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and human treats that looked
exactly like dog treats

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and they were served together

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and you had to think a little
bit before getting one.

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Usually it is some kind of
like stuff that you eat.

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As a callback to that,
you have it here too,

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even though it\'s just
on a visual kind of way.

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(gentle music)

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One thing that I wanted to
do here, which is something

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that not even sophisticated
commercial online games do,

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I wanted to have a sense of
seeing where people are looking.

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Ideally if I approach you
and I look at your feet,

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you will see me looking at your feet.

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It\'s like a kind of telepresence
that you don\'t usually have

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in most online games
and I wanted to do that

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because it seemed very in-theme with that.

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But yeah, it\'s also kind of
like a lot of data going back

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and forth on this very DIY server.

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Yeah, so like it kind of like crashes

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when you reach like 20
people in the same room.

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The city one is a little bit more stable,

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there\'s less data sort of like going on.

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(upbeat music)

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Actually in the backyard

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are some of the most interesting dynamics

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that were happening.

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You know, people were
just like changing avatars

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to little babies because
there is a small avatar,

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kinda like trolling
each other in this space

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and these kind of interactions inspire me

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to expand the space and create
a whole museum out of it.

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And if you want, I can give you a tour.

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(upbeat music continues)

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The idea of the oMoMA is that
there are different rooms.

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There are I think like nine or 10 rooms

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and they all have a little experience

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that is about in the mediated
interaction in the space.

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For example here in the
hallway you will see

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that there is some kind
of installation art there,

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but the catch is that each of us

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is likely to see a different
kind of installation.

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You might see a tree,
you might see a crack,

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you might see a scaffolding
and that is sort of like trying

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to set the tone of what this space is,

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which is kind of like a space
where it\'s not too concerned

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about the seamless objectivity
of the online space.

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So in the Consonant Room,

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consider that most of interaction

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should happen through typing,
right, not through voice.

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And so you can try to
strike a conversation

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and all of the vowels will
be converted into one vowel.

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In this case, all the
vowels will become I\'s.

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But then every minute the rule changes

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and so all the vowels might be removed

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or all the vowels might become O,

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and so you try to communicate

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with other people in this very
arbitrary constrained way.

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All right, let\'s go upstairs,

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I\'m giving you a speed run in here.

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So each one in this room
sees each other as a sheep

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because there is this
assumption in online worlds

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that the world is objective, right?

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What I\'m seeing is what
everybody else is seeing

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and there are engineers working super hard

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to make sure that the world

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in the respective instances
are perfectly aligned.

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It\'s more funny if I don\'t tell you

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and everybody thinks they are the humans.

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The Censorship Room is a bit of a remake

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of an old game I made that
had a similar mechanic.

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In this room, you can
say one word only once

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and this word will be
basically banned forever.

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So if you\'re saying like elephant,

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you can say it once,

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at least since the last
time the server started,

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but you cannot say elephant anymore.

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So you have to figure out
ways to have conversations

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despite this ever-restricting
narrowing of the dictionary.

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I created this room here that
is specifically for role play

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and it\'s like a freeform role play

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in which you are assigned
a role upon entering

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and they are roles of a family,

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kind of like a suburban
stereotypical family.

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And so you already have
a little bit of a prompt

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and you\'re encouraged to play your role.

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All the people who show up
after all the roles are taken

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are basically like little bugs
so they can still spectate

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but they are moving around
as one pixel jumping around.

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There are some role playing worlds,

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instances in \"Roblox\"

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in which people are
hanging out and roleplaying

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but they are never that restrictive

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in that like giving you
a very specific scenario

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to role play.

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So this was a relatively, you know,

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a novel experience for
many people who showed up

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and they actually kind of
like got into it quite a lot,

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kind of weirdly good role play.

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(upbeat music continues)

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So the Dark Room is for cybersex

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and you have to cybersex really.

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So you can type something

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and one of the words in your sentence

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will be turned into raunchy
or like sexually themed word,

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but you don\'t know
which one it\'s gonna be,

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and your conversation will
be weirdly sexualized.

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I\'ll take you to the VIP
Room, which is the last room.

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In the VIP Room, only
three visitors are allowed

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because it\'s very exclusive
and it\'s first in first out,

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meaning that if another person shows up,

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one of us will be kicked out.

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And you\'re kicked out

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and you restart from the
beginning, from the bottom part,

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from the bottom entrance
and so you have to, like,

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go back three flights of stairs.

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But on the other hand you
can have a chocolate fountain

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and the kind of stuff that you know,

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rich people enjoy in their VIP rooms

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at museums and during events.

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In the art world, basically
everything became a Zoom call.

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Everything became a panel and
I immediately got tired of it

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and I thought it was
like really atrocious,

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and so I decided to make something

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that was like maybe like
visually more interesting

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and experientially a
little bit more interesting

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than just connecting on a Zoom

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and the essentially turning everything

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into an office meeting.

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I think I was conceiving
it as a class material

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for my students and I created it in a way

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that could be easily moddable

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and I created to be
relatively clear to understand

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for students who had never worked

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on this particular complex format.

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And so once I had it,
I just posted it online

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and I was like, \"Well, it seems

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\"that everybody\'s sort of
like trying to figure out

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\"how to make exhibitions remotely,\"

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and they were sometimes using you know,

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proprietary things or more
like startup-y things.

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This one gave you the freedom

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to do really like pretty
much everything you wanted.

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Everything was in your power

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if you knew a little bit
of JavaScript essentially.

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I thought it was just
gonna be class material,

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some kind of like educational material

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but actually people deployed it

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for even bigger projects than mine.

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(upbeat music continues)

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- Hello, I\'m Cecile and
I am a graphic designer

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and I guess game designer in Melbourne.

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I make things on my computer

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and one of those things is the Zones.

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- I\'m Jay, I\'m a game designer

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and programmer from Hobart, Tasmania

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and I\'m currently based in Sydney.

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Normally I consider my
main sort of interest

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in kind of like narrative
games a bit before the pandemic

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but then even more sort of like
exacerbated by the pandemic,

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became interested in social
games and social spaces.

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Then also getting to
kinda contribute to it

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through the creation of
these different Zones.

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- The reason why I
found out about LIKELIKE

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and LIKELIKE Online in particular

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is because I was invited to
exhibit one of my Bitsy games

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in this space and it felt very
novel at the time, not novel,

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but it kinda like reminded
me of the type of things

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that I like about the internet.

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Going to the launch party
that they held online

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was super fun.

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I only dropped in for like an
hour or something like that,

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but it was really nice to see

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that you could just kind
of like be in a room

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with other people and that
felt special in a time

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where that was not
really happening anymore.

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- After initially
hearing about the project

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and checking it out,

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I saw someone retweet about
the source being available

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and that put that in my mind

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that it was possible
to use this source code

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to build another online space.

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- Freeplay Independent Games Festival,

00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:03.690
which is this game
festival here in Melbourne

00:15:03.690 --> 00:15:05.970
that usually happens in real life

00:15:05.970 --> 00:15:07.830
but obviously it was not happening

00:15:07.830 --> 00:15:10.320
in real life during the lockdowns,

00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:11.790
they decided to move that online

00:15:11.790 --> 00:15:16.237
and then Jay reached out to me
and Jay was like, \"Hey, like,

00:15:16.237 --> 00:15:20.160
\"let\'s make something
from the LIKELIKE code.\"

00:15:20.160 --> 00:15:22.810
And I was like, \"Sounds
great, let\'s do it (laughs).\"

00:15:25.110 --> 00:15:29.346
So as the volunteer bot
says \"Welcome to the Zone,\"

00:15:29.346 --> 00:15:32.280
(laughs) I call it the Zone Warehouse

00:15:32.280 --> 00:15:35.820
and it\'s not a real place, it\'s
a place from my imagination.

00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:40.110
It\'s very much inspired by
so many of these DIY spaces

00:15:40.110 --> 00:15:42.300
in Melbourne being in like old warehouses,

00:15:42.300 --> 00:15:43.803
converted ones and stuff.

00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:49.200
This is the screening room and
this would\'ve been the place

00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:51.270
where people would come in

00:15:51.270 --> 00:15:55.380
and did people watch talks
here in the 2020 edition?

00:15:55.380 --> 00:15:56.598
I think they did.

00:15:56.598 --> 00:15:58.680
- Yeah, yeah, they watched
talks over the weekend.

00:15:58.680 --> 00:16:01.170
- Everyone could come in
and watch the talks live

00:16:01.170 --> 00:16:05.040
and discuss them and just be part of it.

00:16:05.040 --> 00:16:07.230
- One of my initial
interests was this was like,

00:16:07.230 --> 00:16:09.660
can we like mash YouTube embed

00:16:09.660 --> 00:16:12.660
into the LIKELIKE Online source code

00:16:12.660 --> 00:16:16.500
and manage to very awkwardly DIY do that.

00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:19.620
- On the Saturday night, I believe,

00:16:19.620 --> 00:16:22.530
we did this fun little online party,

00:16:22.530 --> 00:16:25.080
where we just like play videos of YouTube,

00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:27.687
kind of silly songs or
bangers or whatever (laughs),

00:16:29.048 --> 00:16:33.540
and it felt very heartwarming
in that sense, I guess.

00:16:33.540 --> 00:16:35.220
- It really gave people this chance

00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:38.490
to kinda gather together,
which would\'ve been denied

00:16:38.490 --> 00:16:40.713
due to it not being safe to do that.

00:16:42.090 --> 00:16:46.170
- It\'s actually wild how much
the YouTube embed became part

00:16:46.170 --> 00:16:47.880
of the identity of the space.

00:16:47.880 --> 00:16:50.850
Like everyone remembers the screen

00:16:50.850 --> 00:16:52.833
and us playing music on there.

00:16:56.100 --> 00:17:00.000
This is the exhibition room
of the first Freeplay Zone.

00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:01.650
We had decided to have a room

00:17:01.650 --> 00:17:03.540
where we can exhibit a bunch of games

00:17:03.540 --> 00:17:06.450
and there\'s also access
to a mysterious room,

00:17:06.450 --> 00:17:07.650
which is great (laughs).

00:17:09.600 --> 00:17:11.130
- So we\'ve got the rooms downstairs

00:17:11.130 --> 00:17:12.837
that are grounded in real spaces

00:17:12.837 --> 00:17:16.980
and then it\'s more surreal place upstairs

00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:19.980
for these more experimental games.

00:17:19.980 --> 00:17:24.033
- Yeah, it\'s great, I had
a lot of fun making these.

00:17:25.890 --> 00:17:28.260
- One of the things I was
quite interested in doing this

00:17:28.260 --> 00:17:30.270
was sort of like, building
these kind of like moments

00:17:30.270 --> 00:17:33.930
that would happen where
you\'d all be online together

00:17:33.930 --> 00:17:36.000
and then something would
change about the space

00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.927
and you\'d be like, \"Well,
like were you there

00:17:37.927 --> 00:17:39.660
\"when this thing happened online?\"

00:17:39.660 --> 00:17:41.670
and some things like that.

00:17:41.670 --> 00:17:45.330
So we tried to have some
bit of a sense of that.

00:17:45.330 --> 00:17:46.290
This is like one thing we sort

00:17:46.290 --> 00:17:48.480
of added kind of the
like end of the festival

00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:51.063
to have a bit of a simple day night cycle.

00:17:54.870 --> 00:17:56.970
- Hello and welcome to Melbourne (laughs).

00:17:58.710 --> 00:18:02.760
This is the outside of
this real life building

00:18:02.760 --> 00:18:04.080
called The Capitol.

00:18:04.080 --> 00:18:09.080
This was the venue for the one
night event called Parallels.

00:18:11.340 --> 00:18:13.080
Parallels is like,

00:18:13.080 --> 00:18:15.690
I guess you could say it\'s
like a spinoff of Freeplay.

00:18:15.690 --> 00:18:17.850
It is organized by the Freeplay people.

00:18:17.850 --> 00:18:18.683
For a lot of people

00:18:18.683 --> 00:18:21.540
it\'s the highlight of Melbourne
International Games Week,

00:18:21.540 --> 00:18:24.510
which is in October every year.

00:18:24.510 --> 00:18:27.930
It\'s not like a lot of
the business-pilled events

00:18:27.930 --> 00:18:29.640
that happened during that week.

00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:32.523
That\'s why people like this
event because it\'s different.

00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:37.860
Parallels was in October, 2020.

00:18:37.860 --> 00:18:41.220
At that point we had
spent how many months?

00:18:41.220 --> 00:18:43.860
Many months in like full lockdown.

00:18:43.860 --> 00:18:46.710
So the timing of it was quite interesting

00:18:46.710 --> 00:18:49.740
and a lot of people I think
resonated with the space itself

00:18:49.740 --> 00:18:52.080
because of its familiarity

00:18:52.080 --> 00:18:54.360
and also like now that
they were also familiar

00:18:54.360 --> 00:18:57.360
with the concept of a zone as well,

00:18:57.360 --> 00:19:02.360
there was this feeling
of coming back somewhere

00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:05.427
that is twofold and
that was cool (laughs).

00:19:06.724 --> 00:19:09.840
(upbeat music)

00:19:09.840 --> 00:19:11.510
- When I\'d gone to LIKELIKE Online,

00:19:11.510 --> 00:19:14.970
it was basically just myself
or maybe one other person there

00:19:14.970 --> 00:19:16.920
and so it was like very empty and quiet.

00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:18.480
So like the first Freeplay Zone

00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:22.440
when there was up to 50 or
60 people at max capacity,

00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:23.587
that was like, \"Wow, like this

00:19:23.587 --> 00:19:25.407
\"is so different to my experience

00:19:25.407 --> 00:19:28.710
\"of just exploring
Paolo\'s space by myself.\"

00:19:28.710 --> 00:19:32.220
The experience of being in our
space with all these people

00:19:32.220 --> 00:19:34.710
and like, everyone chatting
and joking and laughing

00:19:34.710 --> 00:19:37.260
and reacting to the talks
and everything like that

00:19:37.260 --> 00:19:40.263
was just, like really amazing.

00:19:41.370 --> 00:19:43.800
But then after that, Parallels,

00:19:43.800 --> 00:19:47.310
that was maybe up to 100 people or.

00:19:47.310 --> 00:19:48.863
- There was 250 was it?

00:19:49.800 --> 00:19:52.530
There was like a default limit
for the room or something.

00:19:52.530 --> 00:19:56.520
We just didn\'t imagine that
it would go anywhere near that

00:19:56.520 --> 00:19:58.890
but actually like so
many people logged in,

00:19:58.890 --> 00:19:59.827
that some people were like,

00:19:59.827 --> 00:20:01.537
\"Oh, I literally can\'t go in

00:20:01.537 --> 00:20:03.930
\"because it says like it\'s full,\"

00:20:03.930 --> 00:20:05.580
and we\'re like, \"Oh no (laughs).\"

00:20:07.830 --> 00:20:11.220
Just truly didn\'t expect
how popular this event

00:20:11.220 --> 00:20:14.070
would be, it\'s wild.

00:20:14.070 --> 00:20:16.380
But I think what we have realized

00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:18.030
with this edition of Parallels

00:20:18.030 --> 00:20:20.250
is that on a purely personal level,

00:20:20.250 --> 00:20:23.400
I didn\'t vibe with the
way that this event went

00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.550
as well as like the previous zone went.

00:20:26.550 --> 00:20:29.250
Part of it is probably because
there were so many people

00:20:29.250 --> 00:20:30.840
and it was really overwhelming.

00:20:30.840 --> 00:20:33.030
There was too many people
and too many rooms.

00:20:33.030 --> 00:20:35.430
You had like two completely
different groups,

00:20:35.430 --> 00:20:38.220
one in the theater room watching the talks

00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:40.740
and one other not really
interacting with that

00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:42.957
and it kind of became strange (laughs).

00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:46.260
It just felt like there was a disconnect

00:20:46.260 --> 00:20:48.120
between how I felt about the space

00:20:48.120 --> 00:20:50.520
and how other people felt about the space.

00:20:50.520 --> 00:20:52.530
There was a bit of a discomfort about that

00:20:52.530 --> 00:20:54.510
but that was kinda like
a learning experience

00:20:54.510 --> 00:20:56.250
in that sense where I\'m like okay,

00:20:56.250 --> 00:21:00.450
we can go a little less
hard about about the space

00:21:00.450 --> 00:21:01.950
and making it like grandiose

00:21:01.950 --> 00:21:04.120
or like huge or you know
like that sort of thing

00:21:04.120 --> 00:21:07.140
where we kind of like learned
that actually more rooms

00:21:07.140 --> 00:21:11.010
is not better and we don\'t
need to put extra effort

00:21:11.010 --> 00:21:15.360
into making a larger space
if that means that there

00:21:15.360 --> 00:21:18.074
is less of a sense of being together.

00:21:18.074 --> 00:21:20.741
(upbeat music)

00:21:25.650 --> 00:21:28.980
- So I guess the Research
in Game-Making space next?

00:21:28.980 --> 00:21:30.300
- Yeah, let\'s do that.

00:21:30.300 --> 00:21:33.630
It\'s kinda a different one,
I\'m excited about that one.

00:21:33.630 --> 00:21:36.843
Welcome to Brisbane.
- Yeah, we\'ve hopped

00:21:36.843 --> 00:21:39.120
on a zone flight.
(Cecile laughing)

00:21:39.120 --> 00:21:41.550
So this was one that
we were contacted about

00:21:41.550 --> 00:21:44.790
by the Australian games
academic, Brendan Keogh.

00:21:44.790 --> 00:21:48.390
He was originally gonna hold
a workshop or like symposium,

00:21:48.390 --> 00:21:51.300
sort of like a mini conference
for like different academics

00:21:51.300 --> 00:21:54.780
who are researching game
making to present their work.

00:21:54.780 --> 00:21:58.080
But this was another event that
was affected by the pandemic

00:21:58.080 --> 00:22:00.660
so we ended up moving that online.

00:22:00.660 --> 00:22:01.950
- So yeah, we got commissioned,

00:22:01.950 --> 00:22:05.520
this was like a legit commission I guess.

00:22:05.520 --> 00:22:08.340
I\'ve never been to Brisbane
but this is also a real place.

00:22:08.340 --> 00:22:12.390
So it was interesting in
contrast to the first zone

00:22:12.390 --> 00:22:16.680
where I kind of made up a
new place out of my memories

00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:20.820
and the Parallels Zone
in which I remade a place

00:22:20.820 --> 00:22:22.530
that I\'ve been to.

00:22:22.530 --> 00:22:27.279
This is remaking a place
that I\'ve never been to.

00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:29.946
(upbeat music)

00:22:34.650 --> 00:22:39.540
So this is a reworked version
of the first Freeplay Zone.

00:22:39.540 --> 00:22:41.427
I got better at Pixel art (laughs),

00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:45.510
so I decided to just add a
little bit more detail here

00:22:45.510 --> 00:22:48.810
and there and play with the
space a little bit more.

00:22:48.810 --> 00:22:51.960
- Right now the hole up to the secret area

00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.480
is currently blocked by a cat.

00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:57.240
Yeah, so that was the
like director of Freeplay,

00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:02.240
Chad Toprak\'s cat, but I
should be able to open that up.

00:23:04.020 --> 00:23:07.770
- This was a custom room that we made

00:23:07.770 --> 00:23:10.980
for the literary magazine
called \"Voiceworks,\"

00:23:10.980 --> 00:23:14.700
which is a national
magazine here in Australia.

00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:18.240
The launch of one of their
new issues at the time

00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.000
was happening the same week
that Freeplay was happening,

00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:23.280
and so I guess they had
decided with Freeplay

00:23:23.280 --> 00:23:25.440
to have a joint event type of thing.

00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.810
They asked us to make a bespoke room

00:23:27.810 --> 00:23:30.510
so that we could feature some of the works

00:23:30.510 --> 00:23:34.620
that also featured in the
online edition of the magazine

00:23:34.620 --> 00:23:37.410
and there was like all
these little quirky things

00:23:37.410 --> 00:23:40.367
to do just in time for the launch.

00:23:40.367 --> 00:23:44.310
(upbeat music continues)

00:23:44.310 --> 00:23:47.520
Yeah, so this is also the
revamped screening room

00:23:47.520 --> 00:23:50.733
where we made the video
a little bit bigger.

00:23:52.860 --> 00:23:55.080
I\'m just like really proud
of this work, honestly.

00:23:55.080 --> 00:23:57.480
People really, really resonated with it

00:23:57.480 --> 00:23:59.850
because it happened at a time

00:23:59.850 --> 00:24:03.000
where everyone just
really craved connection.

00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.060
A lot of people actually told
us that the Freeplay Zone

00:24:06.060 --> 00:24:10.410
or the Parallels Zone was
like the highlight of the year

00:24:10.410 --> 00:24:12.813
and like that\'s huge.

00:24:14.148 --> 00:24:15.210
- One of the like really special things

00:24:15.210 --> 00:24:17.100
for me about building these spaces

00:24:17.100 --> 00:24:18.180
was just how much this sort

00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:21.063
of broke down geographical boundaries.

00:24:22.397 --> 00:24:25.650
I had friends that I got to
see again in the Freeplay Zone

00:24:25.650 --> 00:24:29.490
from New Zealand who I
otherwise wouldn\'t have seen

00:24:29.490 --> 00:24:31.590
for a couple of years

00:24:31.590 --> 00:24:34.320
and for like a normal in-person Freeplay,

00:24:34.320 --> 00:24:35.490
they probably wouldn\'t have come

00:24:35.490 --> 00:24:38.250
because it\'s quite a lot of money to spend

00:24:38.250 --> 00:24:39.720
to fly internationally to come

00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:42.430
to a small DIY arts conference like that

00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:47.190
and have friendships with other
people become more in depth

00:24:47.190 --> 00:24:48.570
because you\'d had the chance to chat

00:24:48.570 --> 00:24:49.680
with them into the night

00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:50.830
and that sort of thing.

00:24:52.620 --> 00:24:55.320
- For me, a lot of my inspiration came

00:24:55.320 --> 00:24:58.080
from candle\'s Tinybird Zone.

00:24:58.080 --> 00:25:02.160
That became a really nice example
of people getting together

00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:05.160
to watch movies or whatever and
I just found that very nice.

00:25:08.100 --> 00:25:10.770
- [Mark] I\'m candle, otherwise
known as Mark Wonnacott,

00:25:10.770 --> 00:25:12.210
and for the last two years

00:25:12.210 --> 00:25:16.200
I\'ve been running an online
virtual space called Zone

00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:18.540
or Tinybird Zone.

00:25:18.540 --> 00:25:21.870
It was really at the
beginning of the pandemic

00:25:21.870 --> 00:25:26.788
and we thought, oh God, we\'re
all really depressed now.

00:25:26.788 --> 00:25:29.831
A whole month of lockdown,
what is going on?

00:25:29.831 --> 00:25:31.560
There\'s an artist called Scooter,

00:25:31.560 --> 00:25:33.690
he was doing a live stream on YouTube

00:25:33.690 --> 00:25:37.560
and some of us were watching
and was just kind of like, ah,

00:25:37.560 --> 00:25:41.160
all this ridiculous kind of
rave music is just like ahh!

00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:43.980
Giving us some badly needed serotonin.

00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:47.737
After his stream had finished,
we were kind of like, \"Ah,

00:25:47.737 --> 00:25:48.637
\"I wish it would keep going.

00:25:48.637 --> 00:25:52.050
\"I wish there was like an
after party or something.\"

00:25:52.050 --> 00:25:55.560
I remembered hearing about
WizMUD or seeing it somewhere

00:25:55.560 --> 00:25:59.010
and I don\'t think I\'d ever
logged in or used it or anything,

00:25:59.010 --> 00:26:01.537
but I said, \"Oh, I remember
this space existing,

00:26:01.537 --> 00:26:04.237
\"why don\'t we log in
and see what it\'s about

00:26:04.237 --> 00:26:05.407
\"and try it out?

00:26:05.407 --> 00:26:07.807
\"I think we can cue YouTube videos there

00:26:07.807 --> 00:26:10.767
\"so we can listen to all
the classic Europop.\"

00:26:11.614 --> 00:26:14.280
WizMUD is this online 3D world,

00:26:14.280 --> 00:26:16.737
seems to be in the style of \"RuneScape.\"

00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:20.700
You\'re a wizard, in this
low-poly \"RuneScape\" style.

00:26:20.700 --> 00:26:22.020
You can walk around the world

00:26:22.020 --> 00:26:25.590
and one of the main
attractions is this party room,

00:26:25.590 --> 00:26:27.030
like a really nice space

00:26:27.030 --> 00:26:30.300
where you can have YouTube
videos projected on a screen

00:26:30.300 --> 00:26:32.940
on the back and there\'s
this nice carpeted area

00:26:32.940 --> 00:26:35.100
and bean bags that you can sit on

00:26:35.100 --> 00:26:38.253
and just this really cozy
wizard hangout space.

00:26:40.500 --> 00:26:43.320
We logged in that night
and we had a wild time,

00:26:43.320 --> 00:26:46.440
I mean as wild as an
online YouTube party goes,

00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:49.470
but we had a lot of fun and
listened to a lot of music

00:26:49.470 --> 00:26:52.507
and enjoyed WizMUD so much
that we were like, \"Oh,

00:26:52.507 --> 00:26:54.357
\"gotta do this again next week.\"

00:26:55.740 --> 00:26:58.200
We ran into technical
problems now and then,

00:26:58.200 --> 00:26:59.970
and this is a recurring theme

00:26:59.970 --> 00:27:02.550
that the ability to search YouTube videos

00:27:02.550 --> 00:27:05.310
and to queue YouTube
videos would stop working

00:27:05.310 --> 00:27:08.100
and then we would be unable
to continue the party

00:27:08.100 --> 00:27:10.350
because the music had stopped.

00:27:10.350 --> 00:27:13.500
So in that sense we were relying
on like two third parties,

00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:16.140
the WizMUD admins and also YouTube

00:27:16.140 --> 00:27:17.790
who kept breaking everything

00:27:17.790 --> 00:27:20.250
or I guess we were running into the limits

00:27:20.250 --> 00:27:23.520
of the free service, and
combining that with the feeling

00:27:23.520 --> 00:27:27.600
that we were interlopers
in somebody\'s else\'s space,

00:27:27.600 --> 00:27:29.850
we didn\'t really know anyone from WizMUD,

00:27:29.850 --> 00:27:32.613
we had just remembered that
it existed and dropped in.

00:27:33.570 --> 00:27:35.190
It would be good if we had our own space

00:27:35.190 --> 00:27:37.860
and I know that I\'m interested
in experimenting again

00:27:37.860 --> 00:27:40.470
with this networking
and multiplayer stuff.

00:27:40.470 --> 00:27:42.390
Maybe I can put something together

00:27:42.390 --> 00:27:44.760
that we can use just for us.

00:27:44.760 --> 00:27:47.643
So that\'s where Zone really began.

00:27:48.570 --> 00:27:51.270
Zone originally started
as kind of HTML page

00:27:51.270 --> 00:27:55.170
with YouTube embed and a chat on the side

00:27:55.170 --> 00:27:58.470
and then pretty quickly I
managed to get it to the state

00:27:58.470 --> 00:28:01.830
where it kind of looked
like a room in a Bitsy game,

00:28:01.830 --> 00:28:04.020
again with a chat window on the side

00:28:04.020 --> 00:28:05.763
and the YouTube overlaid.

00:28:06.630 --> 00:28:07.770
It was doing what we wanted,

00:28:07.770 --> 00:28:11.160
but I felt like maybe we
haven\'t really captured enough

00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:14.940
of what we enjoyed about
the parties at WizMUD.

00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:19.940
So I thought maybe if we have
this more developed 3D space,

00:28:19.950 --> 00:28:22.263
it would, I don\'t know,
feel a bit more real.

00:28:24.420 --> 00:28:27.330
This is an earlier version of Zone

00:28:27.330 --> 00:28:29.940
or rather a kind of backup copy

00:28:29.940 --> 00:28:31.680
of an earlier version of Zone.

00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:36.680
This was the last time that
Zone was a 3D virtual world

00:28:37.620 --> 00:28:39.840
and I\'d added this feature

00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:42.570
where you could place the blocks around

00:28:42.570 --> 00:28:45.570
and kind of build the world up together.

00:28:45.570 --> 00:28:48.090
One of the main reasons
that the 3D was abandoned

00:28:48.090 --> 00:28:50.130
was just that in the end,

00:28:50.130 --> 00:28:52.440
Zone is the space where
we\'re coming together

00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:56.310
to watch some music
videos or watch a movie

00:28:56.310 --> 00:28:57.330
or something like that.

00:28:57.330 --> 00:29:00.420
So ultimately we wanna
be here in the center

00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:03.840
where the movie is being
projected onto the screen.

00:29:03.840 --> 00:29:07.080
So people will play
around with the building,

00:29:07.080 --> 00:29:10.110
but it\'s not like we\'ve
come here to build things,

00:29:10.110 --> 00:29:14.013
it\'s just this bolted
on, maybe distraction.

00:29:15.030 --> 00:29:18.180
I kinda sprung this 3D thing on people,

00:29:18.180 --> 00:29:19.860
which I guess is the story for everything

00:29:19.860 --> 00:29:22.470
is that I developed the space

00:29:22.470 --> 00:29:24.600
and there is a single version of it.

00:29:24.600 --> 00:29:26.940
So if I wanna add a feature,

00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:29.370
everyone else basically
has to put up with it

00:29:29.370 --> 00:29:32.700
and these days, I try to
be a bit more considerate

00:29:32.700 --> 00:29:35.013
about getting feedback from people.

00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.250
We\'re looking at the
current day version of Zone.

00:29:41.250 --> 00:29:44.520
This is the place we\'re
meeting up these days.

00:29:44.520 --> 00:29:46.870
I forgot that it says,
\"Piss,\" up top (laughs),

00:29:48.450 --> 00:29:51.753
but it\'s an accurate
reflection of the shenanigans.

00:29:52.890 --> 00:29:54.690
It\'s not a million miles away

00:29:54.690 --> 00:29:57.810
from the 2D version we had before.

00:29:57.810 --> 00:29:59.040
In terms of the features,

00:29:59.040 --> 00:30:02.760
it\'s quite similar to the
3D version you\'ve seen.

00:30:02.760 --> 00:30:06.750
You have the video playlist,
the avatar editing,

00:30:06.750 --> 00:30:08.190
and you have your remotes

00:30:08.190 --> 00:30:11.700
where you can express
yourself to some degree,

00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:14.580
the ability to leave
these messages around.

00:30:14.580 --> 00:30:15.690
They always stick around like,

00:30:15.690 --> 00:30:17.760
I have to clean these up now and then,

00:30:17.760 --> 00:30:19.920
not because people leave anything bad,

00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:22.800
but because eventually
there\'s just so many messages

00:30:22.800 --> 00:30:24.700
that there\'s nowhere to stand anymore.

00:30:26.280 --> 00:30:28.590
We were having problems
where the YouTube service

00:30:28.590 --> 00:30:30.390
would just blacklist you for a while

00:30:30.390 --> 00:30:33.270
for using too much of their services

00:30:33.270 --> 00:30:36.240
and it was becoming kind
of an existential threat

00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:37.230
for the space

00:30:37.230 --> 00:30:39.390
where it\'s like the primary
reason we\'re coming here

00:30:39.390 --> 00:30:41.310
is to watch YouTube videos together.

00:30:41.310 --> 00:30:44.460
When we ran into our first
major outage, for that reason,

00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:46.770
I got really concerned with trying

00:30:46.770 --> 00:30:49.980
to support having our own local files

00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:51.750
and being able to watch videos even

00:30:51.750 --> 00:30:53.730
if the YouTube had failed.

00:30:53.730 --> 00:30:56.760
And with that then we could
start watching movies not

00:30:56.760 --> 00:31:00.093
on YouTube and just like
whatever we felt like doing, so.

00:31:01.050 --> 00:31:02.640
Initially there was a lot of trial

00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:04.740
and error like in any software project,

00:31:04.740 --> 00:31:06.150
just trying to understand

00:31:06.150 --> 00:31:08.310
how the web networking stuff works,

00:31:08.310 --> 00:31:11.250
but there\'s a lot of examples
on how to do it online now.

00:31:11.250 --> 00:31:14.250
I guess it\'s in some ways
it\'s the browser or web stuff

00:31:14.250 --> 00:31:16.350
is quite mature because it\'s used

00:31:16.350 --> 00:31:18.723
by a lot of professional companies.

00:31:21.360 --> 00:31:22.980
There are a lot of little features

00:31:22.980 --> 00:31:26.100
that are specifically
tailored to our group

00:31:26.100 --> 00:31:28.020
and what we are going for.

00:31:28.020 --> 00:31:29.250
One big thing for me

00:31:29.250 --> 00:31:32.490
is that you don\'t need
a user account to join.

00:31:32.490 --> 00:31:34.830
On WizMUD and other spaces,

00:31:34.830 --> 00:31:35.910
you need to make an account

00:31:35.910 --> 00:31:38.730
and it\'s one more barrier of entry

00:31:38.730 --> 00:31:40.380
to inviting a friend along

00:31:40.380 --> 00:31:44.010
who\'s not necessarily the
veteran of online stuff,

00:31:44.010 --> 00:31:46.567
but if you can just send
them a link and say, \"Oh,

00:31:46.567 --> 00:31:48.877
\"just join this and then
you\'ll see the movie

00:31:48.877 --> 00:31:51.390
\"and you can chat or not chat,\"

00:31:51.390 --> 00:31:53.220
that has helped to like make it easier

00:31:53.220 --> 00:31:56.280
to bring in a few more people
who are friends of friends

00:31:56.280 --> 00:31:58.380
who wouldn\'t necessarily wanna
feel like they were jumping

00:31:58.380 --> 00:31:59.730
into the full commitment

00:31:59.730 --> 00:32:02.013
of starting a new game or something.

00:32:04.950 --> 00:32:08.610
A lot of us in Zone are
autistic, or trans and whatever

00:32:08.610 --> 00:32:09.870
and have all these reasons

00:32:09.870 --> 00:32:11.910
why we don\'t like to voice chat too much.

00:32:11.910 --> 00:32:16.080
So keeping it dedicated to
text chat was important to us.

00:32:16.080 --> 00:32:18.480
Some spaces, especially
since the pandemic,

00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:23.480
have really tried to emphasize
video and audio calls

00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:28.170
and kind of tried to be Zoom
with virtual world features,

00:32:28.170 --> 00:32:31.951
whereas we\'re all just happy
with the text chat here.

00:32:31.951 --> 00:32:34.618
(gentle music)

00:32:37.110 --> 00:32:38.397
The worries for the future of Zone

00:32:38.397 --> 00:32:42.090
are just maybe someday
some copyright holder

00:32:42.090 --> 00:32:43.590
will actually care

00:32:43.590 --> 00:32:46.890
and be able to come
after us with something.

00:32:46.890 --> 00:32:50.520
It is essentially similar to
pirate radio or something.

00:32:50.520 --> 00:32:52.440
There\'s not a lot of wiggle room there,

00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:55.710
but hopefully as 30 or so people,

00:32:55.710 --> 00:32:58.500
we\'ll just never be on the radar at all

00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:01.260
and we have no incentive to grow

00:33:01.260 --> 00:33:03.910
because we\'re not trying to
make any money out of it.

00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:09.810
The last kind of existential
threat to Zone is just the fact

00:33:09.810 --> 00:33:13.830
that it\'s a limited group of
people who started coming here

00:33:13.830 --> 00:33:16.920
because of the loneliness of the pandemic

00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:21.920
and maybe if and when
that all comes to an end,

00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:23.970
we\'ll move on with our lives

00:33:23.970 --> 00:33:27.633
and start living out in the fresh air.

00:33:28.530 --> 00:33:30.630
I think probably this is not the case

00:33:30.630 --> 00:33:33.090
because even before the pandemic,

00:33:33.090 --> 00:33:34.890
people like to watch movies together

00:33:34.890 --> 00:33:37.680
and we don\'t all live in the same country,

00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:39.720
so this is a convenient enough way

00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:41.760
for us to do that together.

00:33:41.760 --> 00:33:44.310
So I think it can survive.

00:33:44.310 --> 00:33:48.270
A lot of countries are going
back to, quote unquote, normal

00:33:48.270 --> 00:33:51.180
and despite that, Zone
is as strong as ever.

00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:54.025
So hopefully that continues.

00:33:54.025 --> 00:33:57.525
(gentle music continues)

00:33:58.770 --> 00:34:02.100
- I made a whole lot of friends
on the internet as a teen

00:34:02.100 --> 00:34:03.750
and then after a while that sort of stuff,

00:34:03.750 --> 00:34:04.950
like you don\'t really do that anymore

00:34:04.950 --> 00:34:08.160
because you already have
friends and you don\'t need more.

00:34:08.160 --> 00:34:12.330
But I think being able to
share a space really brings out

00:34:12.330 --> 00:34:15.603
that very organic way that
people will talk to each other.

00:34:16.529 --> 00:34:18.390
- I think with these kind
of spaces there\'s this sense

00:34:18.390 --> 00:34:21.150
of intimacy which you don\'t
get with these larger kind

00:34:21.150 --> 00:34:22.860
of social networks and just the ability

00:34:22.860 --> 00:34:25.160
to see all of the other avatars

00:34:25.160 --> 00:34:27.207
of the people that are in this space,

00:34:27.207 --> 00:34:29.730
and you sort of know who
is gonna see your message,

00:34:29.730 --> 00:34:30.810
who is gonna read it,

00:34:30.810 --> 00:34:34.503
and that makes it more
personal, more friendly.

00:34:36.150 --> 00:34:38.640
- [Mark] Just having a
little bit of presence

00:34:38.640 --> 00:34:40.410
is just quite nice.

00:34:40.410 --> 00:34:43.320
We can all be together and
feel a sense of presence,

00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:45.930
stand close to each other, dance around,

00:34:45.930 --> 00:34:49.260
and just have a little bit more than text.

00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:51.630
And I guess just the feeling of existing,

00:34:51.630 --> 00:34:54.090
even though you\'re not
speaking, is something.

00:34:54.090 --> 00:34:55.800
People can see that you\'re there

00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:59.190
or that you\'re excited
if you use the emotes,

00:34:59.190 --> 00:35:01.980
even if you don\'t have anything to say

00:35:01.980 --> 00:35:03.570
and you don\'t want to feel like you need

00:35:03.570 --> 00:35:07.413
to be speaking constantly
to exist in the space.

00:35:09.210 --> 00:35:11.820
- It\'s already very easy to
create your own little space

00:35:11.820 --> 00:35:14.400
on \"Roblox,\" on \"Minecraft,\"

00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:18.300
but usually the accessibility comes

00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:21.360
with a restriction of flexibility

00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:23.400
of what you can actually do,

00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:26.430
and usually it comes with a price tag,

00:35:26.430 --> 00:35:30.000
even if the product is
free, you are the product

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:32.400
and so you are forced to operate

00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:36.090
within a particular ecosystem,
a particular economy

00:35:36.090 --> 00:35:39.813
and forced to basically
bring value to this platform.

00:35:41.340 --> 00:35:43.330
- I think also like the thing

00:35:43.330 --> 00:35:46.920
about all those proprietary
things is that, okay,

00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:49.080
you can make a zone in
like, fucking \"Minecraft\"

00:35:49.080 --> 00:35:52.110
or fucking \"Roblox or whatever,

00:35:52.110 --> 00:35:54.600
it is still like barrier of entry.

00:35:54.600 --> 00:35:57.030
You would have to have
that program installed.

00:35:57.030 --> 00:35:59.940
You would have to have
ways to access that thing

00:35:59.940 --> 00:36:02.100
that is like one step removed

00:36:02.100 --> 00:36:04.830
from simply loading up a website.

00:36:04.830 --> 00:36:07.110
I think like the browser based nature

00:36:07.110 --> 00:36:11.490
of the zones that we made
is like, I don\'t know,

00:36:11.490 --> 00:36:16.080
like I wouldn\'t even think
about doing it any other way

00:36:16.080 --> 00:36:18.270
because this is the simplest way to do it

00:36:18.270 --> 00:36:20.520
and it\'s also the most accessible one

00:36:20.520 --> 00:36:24.210
for both maker and visitor.

00:36:24.210 --> 00:36:27.540
- Yeah, like for event
that might be a few days

00:36:27.540 --> 00:36:30.090
or one night, to have
this really low barrier

00:36:30.090 --> 00:36:33.270
of entry of you\'ve just
gotta go to this URL,

00:36:33.270 --> 00:36:35.190
that makes it a lot more accessible

00:36:35.190 --> 00:36:37.740
and also makes it a lot more a thing

00:36:37.740 --> 00:36:39.270
that people are willing to make that jump

00:36:39.270 --> 00:36:42.000
and actually go check out,
compared to if they have

00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:45.480
to download a whole
program and make an account

00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:47.030
and all these things like that.

00:36:48.600 --> 00:36:50.220
- One thing about LIKELIKE

00:36:50.220 --> 00:36:54.150
is that it doesn\'t have
a lot of permanence,

00:36:54.150 --> 00:36:58.773
so you cannot really build
something that sticks around.

00:36:59.910 --> 00:37:03.270
That is usually a staple or
a feature of virtual world,

00:37:03.270 --> 00:37:05.310
that the world is essentially persistent

00:37:05.310 --> 00:37:10.140
and it sticks around and it\'s
modified by its inhabitants.

00:37:10.140 --> 00:37:12.690
LIKELIKE is more of an event space.

00:37:12.690 --> 00:37:14.580
Everything pretty much disappears

00:37:14.580 --> 00:37:17.640
and there is very little
you can do in the world.

00:37:17.640 --> 00:37:22.640
So I see it more of a
gathering space, which was,

00:37:23.118 --> 00:37:23.951
you know, the original intention,

00:37:23.951 --> 00:37:27.570
but it\'s also kinda
what I would rather see.

00:37:27.570 --> 00:37:29.700
The problem with virtual worlds

00:37:29.700 --> 00:37:34.700
is that it\'s hard to achieve
a critical mass of users

00:37:35.460 --> 00:37:37.590
that stick around for long enough

00:37:37.590 --> 00:37:39.990
to create some kind of social dynamic.

00:37:39.990 --> 00:37:41.340
You know what I mean?

00:37:41.340 --> 00:37:45.787
The way you can deal with
that is by instead of saying,

00:37:45.787 --> 00:37:50.497
\"Here\'s a small DIY version
of \'Second Life\' or something,

00:37:50.497 --> 00:37:53.250
\"or \'World of Warcraft,\'
instead of saying that,

00:37:53.250 --> 00:37:54.697
you can be like, \"Hey,

00:37:54.697 --> 00:37:58.087
\"why don\'t we all gather
together this Friday

00:37:58.087 --> 00:38:00.480
\"in this online space?\"

00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:03.990
And so I know that I can
probably gather a certain amount

00:38:03.990 --> 00:38:06.720
of people if we all decide to get together

00:38:06.720 --> 00:38:10.503
at a certain point and a
certain, you know, time.

00:38:12.388 --> 00:38:14.040
There is an asynchronous sort of community

00:38:14.040 --> 00:38:16.170
that is sort of like keeping in touch

00:38:16.170 --> 00:38:17.940
or like a mailing list,

00:38:17.940 --> 00:38:21.240
and then there is the
synchronous sort of experience.

00:38:21.240 --> 00:38:24.090
To me, if there is a future for, you know,

00:38:24.090 --> 00:38:29.090
DIY online games, it\'s less a
small version of \"Minecraft\"

00:38:31.290 --> 00:38:35.283
and more like a virtual
version of Burning Man.

00:38:39.420 --> 00:38:40.800
- The hosting that Paolo used

00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:43.410
for the original LIKELIKE was Glitch.

00:38:43.410 --> 00:38:46.353
And so we ended up using that
again for the Freeplay Zone.

00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:50.460
They do have a free tier,
but for projects like this

00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:52.500
where there are like a
lot of people connecting

00:38:52.500 --> 00:38:54.840
and there are a lot of
requests going back and forth,

00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:58.050
you do need to pay a paid membership.

00:38:58.050 --> 00:39:01.110
- With Glitch, I feel like
an increased frustration

00:39:01.110 --> 00:39:04.050
with it, (laughs) honestly.

00:39:04.050 --> 00:39:07.650
- Just with DIY spaces in real life,

00:39:07.650 --> 00:39:09.720
you have this great space for a community

00:39:09.720 --> 00:39:12.567
for a period of time, and then say like,

00:39:12.567 --> 00:39:13.920
the building that you\'re using

00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:17.130
for this DIY space gets
bought by someone else.

00:39:17.130 --> 00:39:19.770
- The new landlord comes in (laughs).

00:39:19.770 --> 00:39:22.470
- Yeah, and they wanna
go and knock it down

00:39:22.470 --> 00:39:24.060
and turn it into apartment blocks.

00:39:24.060 --> 00:39:26.280
And so the same pressures of capitalism

00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:29.883
that exist in real life exist online.

00:39:32.220 --> 00:39:34.560
- [Mark] It\'s definitely
easier now than it\'s ever been,

00:39:34.560 --> 00:39:38.250
especially with Paolo
Pedercini\'s LIKELIKE.

00:39:38.250 --> 00:39:41.130
It\'s easier than ever to make
these small virtual worlds,

00:39:41.130 --> 00:39:44.250
but I guess it\'s as
hard as it ever has been

00:39:44.250 --> 00:39:47.580
to make a community and
actually stick together

00:39:47.580 --> 00:39:49.398
and use such a space.

00:39:49.398 --> 00:39:52.065
(upbeat music)

00:39:53.460 --> 00:39:57.810
- To me, the utopian,
you know, leftist version

00:39:57.810 --> 00:40:02.250
of an online world is not a
world that is just simply full

00:40:02.250 --> 00:40:04.410
of leftist utopian people

00:40:04.410 --> 00:40:08.160
or a world that is used for escapism,

00:40:08.160 --> 00:40:11.610
a place where you go because
the actual world sucks,

00:40:11.610 --> 00:40:15.330
but definitely more of a
temporary autonomous zone

00:40:15.330 --> 00:40:18.180
of some sort, some kind of hangout place,

00:40:18.180 --> 00:40:20.370
a way to connect people that are far away

00:40:20.370 --> 00:40:25.370
and make them maybe experience
sociality in a different way,

00:40:25.980 --> 00:40:30.980
a place that maybe is aware
of how communication protocols

00:40:31.380 --> 00:40:34.890
are affecting the way
we communicate online,

00:40:34.890 --> 00:40:38.310
that your type of interaction
is always informed

00:40:38.310 --> 00:40:41.730
by the protocols and by whoever
established this protocol,

00:40:41.730 --> 00:40:43.953
usually the programmer, the designer.

00:40:44.970 --> 00:40:48.150
- If you look back from the
history of online worlds,

00:40:48.150 --> 00:40:51.150
back to MUDs, when they
were just all text based,

00:40:51.150 --> 00:40:53.640
some of the first online
shared virtual worlds

00:40:53.640 --> 00:40:56.550
were these non-commercial spaces

00:40:56.550 --> 00:40:58.680
and then it was only a bit later on,

00:40:58.680 --> 00:41:01.110
people worked out how to make money of it.

00:41:01.110 --> 00:41:03.690
MMOs started happening

00:41:03.690 --> 00:41:06.603
and then the space became commercialized.

00:41:07.964 --> 00:41:09.000
And then we\'re sort of at this point

00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:11.010
where we\'ve got these
non-commercial spaces

00:41:11.010 --> 00:41:13.380
really picking up, while
there\'s also this push

00:41:13.380 --> 00:41:15.180
to build these hyper commercial spaces

00:41:15.180 --> 00:41:17.760
with this kind of like a
metaverse stuff going on

00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:19.510
from different companies and so on.

00:41:21.541 --> 00:41:23.520
- Also, I think the meta stuff is so funny

00:41:23.520 --> 00:41:26.130
because it\'s like, look at
all this fancy technology

00:41:26.130 --> 00:41:28.827
that we\'re using for meetings (laughs).

00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:32.430
It\'s so boring.

00:41:32.430 --> 00:41:37.113
What a boring way of like
using anything like, oh God.

00:41:38.977 --> 00:41:42.030
(laughs) You don\'t even
have legs (laughs), ah.

00:41:47.190 --> 00:41:50.253
- It\'s almost inevitable if
you\'re creating a virtual world

00:41:50.253 --> 00:41:53.910
that you are expecting
participation from your user

00:41:53.910 --> 00:41:55.920
and your user become an asset

00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:58.530
and become the real wealth of that world.

00:41:58.530 --> 00:42:01.230
You can have the best infrastructure,

00:42:01.230 --> 00:42:04.320
the best \"World of
Warcraft\" type of world,

00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.290
but if you don\'t have the
people there making it alive,

00:42:07.290 --> 00:42:09.120
you can\'t really do anything.

00:42:09.120 --> 00:42:11.760
So the users are the value.

00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:13.580
- [Mark] The most important thing to Zone

00:42:13.580 --> 00:42:17.670
is that we\'re getting people
together for whatever activity,

00:42:17.670 --> 00:42:21.180
whether it\'s listening to
music or watching these movies.

00:42:21.180 --> 00:42:24.180
The technology is, it\'s
a nice tool for us,

00:42:24.180 --> 00:42:27.930
but it\'s not by any means the keystone

00:42:27.930 --> 00:42:30.810
that\'s unlocking our social potential.

00:42:30.810 --> 00:42:34.050
I think the people are
much more important to Zone

00:42:34.050 --> 00:42:36.300
than the technology that we have.

00:42:36.300 --> 00:42:39.930
This could never have
existed except for the fact

00:42:39.930 --> 00:42:44.370
that I had this group of
friends that I had met already

00:42:44.370 --> 00:42:46.653
and that we knew we wanted to hang out.

00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:53.000
- This sort of personalized
experience is the type of stuff

00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:58.593
that you can really only create
from knowing your community.

00:42:59.430 --> 00:43:02.220
A big company couldn\'t
do that, let\'s be honest.

00:43:02.220 --> 00:43:07.220
And we did it in a way that people forgot

00:43:07.770 --> 00:43:10.020
that this was a thing that existed.

00:43:10.020 --> 00:43:13.080
This was a way that people
could talk to each other,

00:43:13.080 --> 00:43:14.760
interact with each other,

00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:19.760
that doesn\'t rely on Zoom
or big business things.

00:43:20.790 --> 00:43:21.630
It\'s not something

00:43:21.630 --> 00:43:24.513
that you can fucking
focus group your way into.

00:43:25.500 --> 00:43:26.520
You gotta put in the work

00:43:26.520 --> 00:43:29.423
and I\'m glad that we did, you know?

00:43:29.423 --> 00:43:32.006
(gentle music)

00:43:38.032 --> 00:43:41.449
(gentle music continues)

00:43:47.013 --> 00:43:50.430
(gentle music continues)

00:43:56.030 --> 00:43:59.530
(gentle music continues)

00:44:05.856 --> 00:44:08.939
(upbeat synth music)

00:44:13.999 --> 00:44:17.916
(upbeat synth music continues)

00:44:23.038 --> 00:44:26.955
(upbeat synth music continues)

00:44:32.049 --> 00:44:35.966
(upbeat synth music continues)

00:44:41.046 --> 00:44:44.963
(upbeat synth music continues)

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(upbeat synth music continues)

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(upbeat synth music continues)