WEBVTT

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THE END

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BASQUE GOVERNMENT

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Father.

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-Do you know this person?
-Of course, Amparo Arangoa.

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Do you know her personally?

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Past tense,
because unfortunately she\'s dead.

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She was my cousin\'s wife.
They arrested her in Leitza

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and then beat her up and tortured her
at the Tolosa police station,

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as you can see in the photos.

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She was brave enough
to publish the photos

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and they caused quite a stir.

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Do you recognise this plaque?

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Of course.

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It\'s the memorial plaque
at our house

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in Castaño, Rentería.

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You were already born by then

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and I remember that one morning
the news spread

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that Mikel Arrastia

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had committed suicide

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fleeing from the police.

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Apparently,

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he was overcome by fear

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and rather than being tortured,

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he chose to take his own life.

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Do you recognize this photo?

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So much time has gone by since then!
I was 24 years old.

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-It\'s the same photo, right?
-I\'ve changed so much!

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They took this mug shot of me
at the Antiguo station.

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-When you were detained?
-Yes. For the first time.

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-You talk about it in your book.
-Yes.

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I\'ve read this book again and again.

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And here\'s my first question:
did you ever report being tortured?

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It was impossible back then.

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Who were you going to tell?

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The Civil Guard tortured me
and beat me up several times.

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They carried out arrests
when they wanted. Put up with it.

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And have you reported being tortured
since then?

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No.

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\"HB\'s manipulation of Oyarzun\'s death
shameless, says PNV\"

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\"Three officers sentenced
to four years for torturing Urra\"

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\"Four ETA members arrested in France,

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including two former
Madrid cell members\"

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\"Vizcaya cell car bomb injures
policeman in Bilbao\"

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\"Masa and Sancristóbal jailed
for organising and financing crime\"

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\"Cases of torture
in the Basque Country:

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reality or just propaganda?\"

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Nice to meet you.

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I\'m going to show you

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several documents
that we\'re going to read through.

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I\'ll give you

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the form where it clearly explains
the whole process

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of this project.

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\"This investigation,

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the project of investigation
on torture,

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is conducted by
the Basque Institute of Criminology,

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Kriminologiaren Euskal Institutua,
UPB,

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at the request of the General
Secretary for Peace and Coexistence

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and led by
professor Francisco Etxeberria,

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specialised in legal medicine
and forensics.

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The project\'s general aim

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responds to initiative six

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of the Peace and Coexistence Plan
2013-2016,

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where it states the need
to carry out a scientific study

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that addresses the objective reality
of torture in our context.

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It should also allow us take the
necessary measures

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of recognition and reparation

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that are plausible in the light
of this study\'s conclusions.

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First phase.

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To provide a comprehensive approach
to the scale of the problem,

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a census will be made
of judicial or public complaints

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of torture in the period...

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between 1960 and 2013.

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Individuals who agree to it
will also be interviewed.\"

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Phase one.

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Just what I\'m going to be doing
with you.

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\"In a second phase,

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based on a random sample
of 200 cases,

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a study will be conducted

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on the credibility of the complaint
using the Istanbul Protocol.\"

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Psychologists and psychiatrists
will do this.

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Thirdly,

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on the basis of court documentation
contained in the court records,

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a statistical study will undertaken

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on torture methods in relation to

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demographic, procedural
and criminological variables.\"

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-Any questions? Is it clear?
-It\'s clear.

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Firstly, you\'ll make a sworn statement

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stating that you report
a case of torture

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and you are taking part
in this project.

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I need your signature here.

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Okay...

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Perfect.

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Okay, we\'re ready.

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Your place of birth?

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-San Sebastián.
-San Sebastián.

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Date of birth?

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27 October 1962.

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Where did they detain you?

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-Intxaurrondo.
-Police force?

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-Civil Guard.
-Civil Guard.

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-How many days...?
-Solitary for 72 hours.

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72 hours.

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-Did you report torture?
-No. Okay.

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Firstly,
I\'ll ask you to introduce yourself.

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Then I\'ll ask you more questions.

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So, let\'s start.

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-Introduce myself?
-Yes.

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I\'m Francisco Jiménez Rivera, \"Patxi\".

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I\'ve come to tell this story

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because I think

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I owe a debt to society
for not having reported it.

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I didn\'t do it
because I received death threats.

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Not just me,

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but members of my family too.

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So...

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it all happened quickly,
though it seemed to last forever.

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I was taken to a dormitory,
a light was shone in my face.

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There were about a dozen people
asking me questions.

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Did I go to demos?
Was I a member of ETA?

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Did I have hidden weapons?

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Every time I said no
they slapped me

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around the ears like this.

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Around the ears?

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I can\'t say how many times.

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There came a time
when I was so dazed

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that I didn\'t care what happened.

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It was a question, then a blow.

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They kicked you,
then took you to a corridor.

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You had to stand spread-eagled.

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They threatened to throw you
out the window,

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called you a fucking terrorist.

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One officer took me to the toilets

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and started to hit me in the stomach
with a metal bar.

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To break us psychologically,
they showed us

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policemen and soldiers
killed by ETA.

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Look at this guy,
this is what you did.

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They tried to break your spirit.

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You end up wanting to die
so you stop suffering.

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I don\'t know how to put it.

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It\'s such a stressful situation.

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There were lots of Civil Guards.
They were coming and going.

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Beatings...
It was pretty chaotic.

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\"Don\'t report it
or we\'ll come for you.\"

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That\'s the reason why I\'m here.

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It\'s late,
but it\'s important to report it.

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Was there a doctor?

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I don\'t really remember.

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Were you blindfolded?

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-No.
-Were your hands tied?

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Yes, I was cuffed.

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-Did the cuffs leave a mark?
-No.

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-A strange smell?
-No.

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-Sitting down?
-And tied up.

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Do your remember the room
where you were interrogated?

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Did you fall on the floor?

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Did they strip you naked?

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Did you every faint?

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Did you wear the same clothes
for three days?

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Itziar\'s son doesn\'t betray
his colleagues

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and when faced with the pigs,

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he remains staunch and silent...

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What a lad Itziar\'s son,

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he\'d rather die than betray anyone!

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Young Maji can feel so proud of him,

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and when he leaves jail
she\'ll go and look for him

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Young Maji, what a great lad you have,

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he\'d rather die than betray anyone

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Son, how did you end up
looking like that?

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Mother, they beat me so I\'d talk.

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Olatz told me that they already
interviewed you.

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-Yes.
-How was it?

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Fine. She asked me very
straightforward questions

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and I said what I had to.

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Were you nervous?

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Not at all.
The interview was nice and relaxed.

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-Okay, one thing less, right?
-Yes.

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Let\'s see if we get the report.

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Young Maji, what a great lad you have,

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he\'d rather die than betray anyone.

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They slammed me against a wall
and hit my head on it.

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I saw something sort of red
on the wall.

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Maybe they told me
or I guessed it was someone\'s blood.

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It was dry blood.

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And I said to myself:

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\"This is where they beat us
and someone bled.\"

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I think so.

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And then...

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With the bag over your head?

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No.
Because I saw the blood on the wall.

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I was sitting in a chair
with a bag over my head.

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They hit me on the head.

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Maybe they used their hands,
a book or something else.

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And different voices,
coming from all directions.

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People were coming and going,
doors were slammed.

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\"Jesus Christ, I\'ve lost my patience
with you! I\'ll kill you!\"

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Then someone with a gentler voice:
\"Don\'t make the inspector angry...\"

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There was one guy they called
\"the inspector\", I think.

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\"He\'s losing his patience
and if he does...

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Please listen to reason...\"

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\"It\'s to your advantage,
just tell us things.\"

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\"If you talk,
you can leave right now.\"

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But to be honest...

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I have a lot of lapses of memory.

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I definitely heard screams...

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of people in pain.

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I heard my sister too.

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In the cell or the interrogation room?

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In a room next door
while I was in the interrogation room.

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Okay.

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I heard those screams.

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At one point
you heard your sister screaming.

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Can you remember what she said?

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No, it just sounded like this...

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How did it make you feel?

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I was...

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Like I was made of stone.

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I actually thought
it wasn\'t even my sister.

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Perhaps it was a recording.

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What I mean is...

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Everything that is happening
is just an act

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to make me confess

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and talk.

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But there was a moment of desperation,
I couldn\'t take anymore.

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When did you feel like that?

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In one of the interrogations.

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In one of the interrogations
they said

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they wanted to see my nipples

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so they could apply electrodes
to them.

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I was wearing

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a denim shirt with snap fasteners

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that they just ripped it open.

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I don\'t remember if they touched me.

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I don\'t remember.

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They said stuff like:

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\"Nice tits, nice body,

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we\'re feeling randy.

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If you screw ETA guys
you won\'t mind screwing policemen.\"

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-That was when you felt it?
-Yes.

00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:25.400
Please go in.

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The aim of this Istanbul Protocol
interview

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is not for people who allege
torture and ill-treatment

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to give an account
like you have up to now.

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I\'ll explain why.

00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:43.720
This is not
a straightforward account.

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It is about relating to the moment,

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the feelings and the experiences.

00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:53.520
In some ways,
this is the core of the interview.

00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:57.040
Not just the written account
or the complaints,

00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:59.240
which I\'ve already read.

00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:01.880
Instead, we have to analyse

00:23:02.040 --> 00:23:06.040
the veracity of the events
you describe.

00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:10.240
That is one of the aims
of the Istanbul Protocol.

00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:12.280
Also, to see and analyse

00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:13.880
how you feel,

00:23:14.040 --> 00:23:16.920
the situations you experienced,

00:23:17.080 --> 00:23:20.760
and determine what your emotional
and psychological state is.

00:23:25.800 --> 00:23:28.680
Humiliating me,
making me strip off...

00:23:29.120 --> 00:23:33.680
Then they start the rape ritual.

00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:43.640
They told me
that they were going to rape me.

00:23:43.800 --> 00:23:48.240
I\'m on the floor,
they pin me down, open my legs.

00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:50.520
-You\'re naked?
-Yes.

00:23:52.080 --> 00:23:56.680
Then they began touching my crotch

00:23:56.840 --> 00:23:59.680
while saying:
\"Would you look at that!\"

00:23:59.840 --> 00:24:04.600
\"She\'s all wet, she\'s gonna enjoy it!\"

00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:09.920
And filthy stuff like that.

00:24:14.120 --> 00:24:18.640
They placed the gun in my vagina

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and began pulling the trigger.

00:24:21.840 --> 00:24:27.760
It was a gun with blanks,
I don\'t know anything about weapons.

00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:34.440
-And if you go back to that situation?
-Sorry?

00:24:36.040 --> 00:24:41.200
If you recall that situation now,
what do you feel?

00:24:44.560 --> 00:24:49.360
I don\'t know what to say.
I was holding back all the time.

00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:55.520
I hardly even felt the beatings.

00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:02.040
My thought at the time was:

00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:05.200
to get out of here,
you must play a role.

00:25:05.360 --> 00:25:08.680
You have to stick to your role.

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I didn\'t even tell them my name
to begin with.

00:25:12.360 --> 00:25:14.920
I eventually told them,

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but I replied \"No, no, no\"
to all their questions.

00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:20.560
In the end I thought:

00:25:21.360 --> 00:25:23.320
they\'ve beaten me black and blue,

00:25:23.520 --> 00:25:27.520
your partner has already squealed
about this and that...

00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:30.640
That\'s the reason
for this cross-examination.

00:25:33.800 --> 00:25:37.200
But I was always waiting

00:25:37.360 --> 00:25:40.080
for the worst to come...

00:25:41.040 --> 00:25:43.360
and so I was holding back.

00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.520
Keeping my mind clear
was the hardest part for me.

00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:54.800
So in a situation like that...
On the floor...

00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:54.920
Shall I serve breakfast now?

00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:01.640
It\'ll do us good to have breakfast
before the meeting.

00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:05.880
Well, it\'s great
to get together again.

00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.840
We were discussing the database,

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:12.040
the study about women and torture.

00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:15.920
The idea would be to make use
of the two combined databases

00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:18.840
to analyse female-specific data.

00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:21.880
In Navarre, for example,
we have several cases

00:27:22.040 --> 00:27:25.320
that are assessed,
but not in any of the studies.

00:27:25.520 --> 00:27:28.320
We could add it as well

00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:33.240
to include it in the database,
but it would need organising.

00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:37.920
Remember that we also have a lot
of Istanbul Protocols

00:27:38.080 --> 00:27:39.920
already carried out.

00:27:40.080 --> 00:27:43.520
So perhaps we could also
divide up that work,

00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:47.720
because many of the protocols
and interviews are transcribed.

00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:51.320
We could start looking at variables.

00:27:51.520 --> 00:27:55.200
We need to standardise
the database.

00:27:55.360 --> 00:27:57.800
How about in two weeks?

00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:00.920
I also think it\'s interesting

00:28:01.080 --> 00:28:03.160
to address how different it is

00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:06.400
for women who were tortured in the 70s

00:28:06.560 --> 00:28:09.360
or the ones tortured in 2000.

00:28:10.120 --> 00:28:13.400
Molestation is an aspect
that crops up a lot, right?

00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:16.160
A strategy to break them.

00:28:16.320 --> 00:28:19.960
The threat of rape is more likely
to be believed by a woman.

00:28:20.120 --> 00:28:22.800
Although a man is threatened
with rape,

00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.160
it\'s probably less credible.

00:28:25.320 --> 00:28:29.040
-It\'s also used against men.
-But less so.

00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:32.840
When they found out
they were homosexuals it was...

00:28:33.520 --> 00:28:34.960
just as bad or worse

00:28:35.120 --> 00:28:37.760
in some cases than for women.

00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.280
Because it\'s a sexist construct
and the mindset too.

00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:43.760
It\'s there and it\'s quite visible.

00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:47.520
Give a higher profile

00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:51.440
to LGTB individuals.
It\'s discussed but not highlighted.

00:28:51.600 --> 00:28:54.000
We don\'t address it specifically.

00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:57.000
So we could start to look at how

00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:00.960
we can engage with these areas
as a team...

00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:14.240
All right...

00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:16.360
-How about lunch?
-Yes, please.

00:29:25.800 --> 00:29:28.520
I\'d like us to use
this after-dinner chat

00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:33.240
and talk about how you got here
and to highlight your journey.

00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.360
Yes, I can put it into context
with a small example.

00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:41.080
This is one of the prehistoric...

00:29:42.600 --> 00:29:45.680
devices that was used.

00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:49.920
These are some of the publications

00:29:50.680 --> 00:29:52.680
this team was involved in

00:29:52.840 --> 00:29:56.720
over the last 30 years

00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:58.440
on the subject of torture,

00:29:58.600 --> 00:30:03.320
human rights,
and the rights of those in prison.

00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:09.280
I\'d always worked
with doctors, coroners.

00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:12.640
We began to hear about
the Istanbul Protocol.

00:30:12.800 --> 00:30:16.640
Nowadays people know it,
but we\'re talking about

00:30:16.800 --> 00:30:18.560
when I met Olatz.

00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.400
-Maybe before 1990?
-We met in 1990.

00:30:23.320 --> 00:30:27.880
What we had there
was an area we couldn\'t cover.

00:30:28.040 --> 00:30:30.400
The psychological damage
caused by torture.

00:30:31.040 --> 00:30:33.520
Training came about...

00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:38.120
as a result of the work
Benito and Olatz mentioned.

00:30:38.280 --> 00:30:40.720
The idea was to join together

00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:43.600
coroners and psychologists.

00:30:43.760 --> 00:30:47.120
The tool that made it possible
was the Istanbul Protocol.

00:30:47.280 --> 00:30:50.640
As Benito said, initially the idea

00:30:50.800 --> 00:30:55.360
was to see how to introduce
the psychological aspect.

00:30:55.520 --> 00:30:58.000
It grew from there
and eventually we said:

00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:00.520
we need specific training.

00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:03.720
That training was carried out

00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:08.680
with the support
of grassroots movements from Saragossa

00:31:08.840 --> 00:31:11.240
who feared the extreme right.

00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:15.840
And when we had to train
30-something people,

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:17.960
it was carried out

00:31:18.120 --> 00:31:21.920
in the Ateneo building,
not a squat anymore,

00:31:22.080 --> 00:31:27.280
with plainclothes police
watching the two sessions.

00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:28.960
Did you feel harassed?

00:31:29.120 --> 00:31:31.720
They were in plain clothes,
but it was obvious.

00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:33.800
And they didn\'t hide it.

00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:37.280
It\'s part of the dynamic of torture:

00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.840
reporting it, investigating it
caring for its victims.

00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:44.160
Being watched over, that unease...

00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:48.520
Traumatic experiences
were going to be discussed.

00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:50.240
How many would be present?

00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:53.000
How many professionals were involved?

00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:55.600
Putting names to the faces.

00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:00.520
These are press clippings.

00:32:01.800 --> 00:32:04.280
-When you submitted the report.
-In Madrid.

00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:06.920
You were going to submit

00:32:07.080 --> 00:32:10.200
the report on
incommunicado detention and torture.

00:32:10.360 --> 00:32:15.080
-Why is this report so important?
-Madrid bar association.

00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:19.120
We made sure
the Istanbul Protocol interviews

00:32:19.280 --> 00:32:23.360
were well conducted and we knew
what the protocol entailed.

00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:26.960
Our work was carried out
painstakingly.

00:32:27.120 --> 00:32:29.000
Everything we write

00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:31.760
must be based on the findings

00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:34.960
we see as psychologists.
Everything.

00:32:35.840 --> 00:32:39.040
This is why three UN rapporteurs said

00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:40.800
the report was flawless.

00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:45.320
When the report came
from the Basque Government

00:32:45.520 --> 00:32:48.200
requesting 200 Istanbul Protocols,

00:32:48.360 --> 00:32:51.560
that was why we said
we would do the work,

00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:54.120
but using this method.

00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:58.840
Did you ever have any case
where you used the protocol

00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:01.040
and thought \"this one isn\'t...\"?

00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:03.080
That it wasn\'t torture?

00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:05.240
Yes, there have been cases.

00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:09.000
How about cases where you felt
the person was lying?

00:33:09.600 --> 00:33:11.120
-No.
-No.

00:33:11.280 --> 00:33:13.600
So if you approve the case

00:33:13.760 --> 00:33:16.000
it means there is no doubt?

00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:17.520
That\'s right.

00:33:18.120 --> 00:33:19.520
For many people

00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:22.600
talking about it is so traumatic

00:33:22.760 --> 00:33:27.280
that when they decide
to describe events,

00:33:28.280 --> 00:33:31.680
they probably fear reliving
that pain and suffering.

00:33:31.840 --> 00:33:33.880
Many of them can\'t bear it.

00:33:34.040 --> 00:33:37.520
There are those who believe
they weren\'t tortured, right?

00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:41.800
Yes, there are quite a few
of those cases.

00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.120
With the court\'s permission,

00:33:52.280 --> 00:33:54.200
I would ask you, Ms. Barrenetxea,

00:33:54.360 --> 00:33:57.960
to turn around and look
at the people behind you.

00:33:58.120 --> 00:34:01.240
Take all the time you need

00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:04.120
and tell us if you recognise
any of them

00:34:04.280 --> 00:34:08.720
as being involved in
some of the incidents

00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:11.520
that you described to us,
or it they were present

00:34:11.640 --> 00:34:15.680
when any of these incidents
took place.

00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:18.920
In that case, tell us who it is
and what they did.

00:34:23.160 --> 00:34:25.200
He\'s the one who...

00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:26.920
He\'s the one...

00:34:27.080 --> 00:34:30.520
who put me on the table

00:34:30.680 --> 00:34:33.560
and then stood in front of me

00:34:33.720 --> 00:34:35.760
wearing a mask.

00:34:36.120 --> 00:34:37.680
I know it\'s him

00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:40.280
because he was in front of me.

00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:42.000
And I saw him.

00:34:43.040 --> 00:34:45.360
The other one was in the car.

00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:48.560
Jesus Christ...

00:34:50.680 --> 00:34:52.640
And the guy on the end...

00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:58.320
he was the one who took my statement.

00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:00.680
His hair was different,

00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:04.120
but I\'m certain he was the one
who took my statement.

00:35:05.640 --> 00:35:10.040
You don\'t recognise the third person?

00:35:10.200 --> 00:35:12.000
You\'ve never seen him before?

00:35:12.160 --> 00:35:15.920
The third on your left.

00:35:19.080 --> 00:35:20.520
No.

00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:26.520
And one more point...

00:35:42.520 --> 00:35:46.080
Oh my God... Jesus Christ...

00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:48.320
Please, madam.

00:35:48.520 --> 00:35:52.000
I realise that you\'re very nervous,

00:35:52.160 --> 00:35:54.120
we\'re letting you take your time,

00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:59.160
but I would ask you not to swear.
All right?

00:36:03.720 --> 00:36:05.920
This is a reason

00:36:06.080 --> 00:36:08.360
why people don\'t report it.

00:36:09.560 --> 00:36:11.600
If I go to court,

00:36:12.200 --> 00:36:15.560
I\'m surrounded by those
who tortured me

00:36:16.560 --> 00:36:19.520
and the judge makes
that type of remark,

00:36:19.680 --> 00:36:22.760
it makes me feel like a victim again.

00:36:24.600 --> 00:36:26.240
I was at that trial.

00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:28.720
I think she was very brave.

00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:31.440
She showed her pain and suffering.

00:36:32.120 --> 00:36:36.800
We were at the entrance with others
who were there to support

00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:40.040
and protect her
so it wouldn\'t all be police.

00:36:40.200 --> 00:36:42.760
It was like a wartime scenario.

00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:44.960
It was a bit like...

00:36:45.120 --> 00:36:48.040
How many are there to protect her,

00:36:48.200 --> 00:36:51.200
how many are there to intimidate her?

00:36:52.120 --> 00:36:56.120
Could a comparison be made
between developments

00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:58.360
in the area of gender violence

00:36:58.520 --> 00:37:00.320
and in torture?

00:37:00.520 --> 00:37:02.280
Today it\'s inconceivable

00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:07.080
to place a group of rapists in front
of a victim who has to testify.

00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:09.160
But the thing is,

00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:11.320
it\'s assumed that

00:37:11.520 --> 00:37:14.320
all victims must be protected.

00:37:15.040 --> 00:37:18.040
If you have a scenario

00:37:18.560 --> 00:37:21.840
where 50% of those present,

00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:24.720
let\'s say 60-70, are Civil Guards,

00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:28.600
you say they\'re friends
of the accused.

00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:30.560
No, they\'re Civil Guards.

00:37:30.720 --> 00:37:33.760
That is completely illegal

00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:37.520
and goes against
protecting a victim.

00:37:37.680 --> 00:37:41.920
I do think
that when it comes to torture,

00:37:42.080 --> 00:37:44.640
unlike rape,

00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:46.840
it\'s the State being judged.

00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:49.400
A rapist is accused by an individual.

00:37:49.560 --> 00:37:53.120
For that reason,
I think it\'s a lot more complicated

00:37:53.720 --> 00:37:56.840
to judge cases of torture.

00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:58.600
I compare it to

00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:03.040
children who have been sexually abused
by priests.

00:38:03.200 --> 00:38:04.880
Torture is similar.

00:38:05.040 --> 00:38:08.040
I don\'t want to believe,
I can\'t believe,

00:38:08.200 --> 00:38:11.520
that someone who is supposedly
there to protect me

00:38:11.680 --> 00:38:13.040
could hurt me.

00:38:13.680 --> 00:38:17.880
Torture is not just a method,
it\'s a strategy.

00:38:18.040 --> 00:38:20.560
It\'s not just a fact,

00:38:20.720 --> 00:38:23.000
something that is done to someone.

00:38:23.160 --> 00:38:25.800
There is a purpose behind it.

00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:30.400
And that strategy, that purpose,
was to break our social fabric.

00:38:30.560 --> 00:38:33.040
We can see that as a result.

00:38:33.200 --> 00:38:35.120
The way it divides us:

00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:39.720
to believe or not to believe.
Did they say it or did we?

00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:42.280
It polarises society.

00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:44.840
They don\'t want us to join forces,

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:47.000
rebuild the social fabric,

00:38:47.160 --> 00:38:50.800
and unite in confronting
that strategy.

00:39:12.680 --> 00:39:13.840
Ready.

00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:18.240
I don\'t remember it very clearly,
but I know that...

00:39:18.760 --> 00:39:21.960
The situation was very tough for me.

00:39:23.640 --> 00:39:25.280
I don\'t know...

00:39:26.200 --> 00:39:29.360
You feel sort of detached...
I don\'t know how to put it.

00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:34.160
You\'re there, you feel afraid and...

00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:37.280
But...

00:39:37.680 --> 00:39:41.560
it\'s all so chaotic, so crazy,

00:39:41.720 --> 00:39:45.360
that it doesn\'t feel real either.

00:39:46.240 --> 00:39:49.120
It\'s like you\'re on the outside
looking in,

00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:52.240
but you feel that you\'re still
in the situation.

00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:54.280
It\'s a weird feeling.

00:39:56.120 --> 00:39:57.280
All right.

00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:01.200
Why would we say
this is a true account?

00:40:02.040 --> 00:40:06.120
Because when the person
is talking about it,

00:40:06.600 --> 00:40:09.920
she isn\'t even looking
at the clinician.

00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:15.160
Watch her movements.

00:40:16.720 --> 00:40:20.880
She\'s looking,
but the movie is playing in her head.

00:40:21.040 --> 00:40:23.400
She\'s at the police station.

00:40:26.680 --> 00:40:30.760
Okay, the journey:
you were handcuffed.

00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:35.320
Blindfolded and looking down.

00:40:36.640 --> 00:40:41.920
The journey made me anxious
because I kept hearing...

00:40:42.080 --> 00:40:47.880
They were laughing and saying:
\"We\'re gonna crash!\"

00:40:48.040 --> 00:40:49.920
The car was going very fast.

00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:56.120
We were speeding and they said:
\"We\'re gonna crash!\"

00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:03.120
-Were you afraid?
-Yes, but I felt frozen inside.

00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:05.280
I don\'t know how to explain it.

00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:09.600
I felt sort of numb, frozen. And...

00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:15.160
They started
touching my breasts again.

00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:21.680
At one point, I thought:
great, let them do that to me.

00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:26.160
I thought I was in control of that,
it didn\'t hurt.

00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:30.400
I was afraid of physical pain.

00:41:30.560 --> 00:41:32.560
-Physical pain?
-Yes.

00:41:32.720 --> 00:41:38.120
And they kept asking me questions.
I was looking down all the time.

00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:43.680
And at one point, they put a gun
to the back of my head

00:41:44.200 --> 00:41:49.240
and began pulling the trigger.
They were laughing and firing and...

00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:51.720
-Aizeti.
-Right...

00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:02.160
What do you feel...?

00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:08.120
I don\'t know what to say.
It\'s like I told you:

00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:10.840
I felt as cold as ice at the station.

00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:16.400
Like I was numb inside,
I didn\'t feel anything, not even pain.

00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:23.120
Perhaps it was a defence mechanism,

00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:29.000
but I remember feeling that way
for five days.

00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:33.400
All right,
we\'ll delve into that later,

00:42:33.560 --> 00:42:35.760
but let\'s go back to the car

00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:39.160
when they put the gun to your head

00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:42.360
and repeatedly pull the trigger.

00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:47.920
Bearing in mind the moment
you find yourself in

00:42:48.080 --> 00:42:51.640
and the context,
do you remember thinking,

00:42:51.800 --> 00:42:57.000
even in a rational way:
\"They\'re going to kill me...\"?

00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:00.800
Thinking of it as a logical outcome.

00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:02.200
Thinking what?

00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:05.160
-They\'re going to kill me.
-Yes, I did.

00:43:07.160 --> 00:43:08.920
This sequence is important.

00:43:09.520 --> 00:43:12.000
Not just the account, obviously,

00:43:12.160 --> 00:43:15.320
but how she starts to tell it.

00:43:17.080 --> 00:43:19.840
Her style is completely...

00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:23.840
rational, unemotional.

00:43:24.560 --> 00:43:27.160
She\'s not even looking at me.

00:43:28.280 --> 00:43:31.200
She\'s focusing on that sequence but...

00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:35.040
she\'s only seeing it from the outside.

00:43:36.160 --> 00:43:38.600
I say her name so she looks at me

00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:43.840
and connects with reality.

00:43:44.520 --> 00:43:46.880
That is when she suddenly

00:43:47.040 --> 00:43:51.080
giggles a little bit at the beginning.

00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:55.080
Then the feelings flood out
and she starts crying.

00:43:55.240 --> 00:43:56.760
If I let her

00:43:57.520 --> 00:44:00.600
give this account just the way
she began it,

00:44:01.160 --> 00:44:03.640
she would be describing a sequence

00:44:03.800 --> 00:44:07.520
filled with vulnerability,
defencelessness and panic,

00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:10.760
but I don\'t detect any feelings.

00:44:11.720 --> 00:44:14.720
If we just select that sequence

00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:17.680
without showing the whole interview,

00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:21.440
you\'d say she was making it up,

00:44:21.600 --> 00:44:22.920
it can\'t be true.

00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:29.040
Bam! They push me against the wall,
grab hold of me.

00:44:29.200 --> 00:44:31.920
They take the chair leg

00:44:32.080 --> 00:44:35.520
and try ramming it up my arse.

00:44:36.680 --> 00:44:40.160
They start arguing.
One says: \"No! What are you doing?\"

00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:43.600
\"Let me, I\'m gonna kill this fucker!\"

00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:46.520
And of course,

00:44:46.640 --> 00:44:50.320
in a very short space of time

00:44:50.520 --> 00:44:52.760
it was two really violent things.

00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:54.600
They tried to stick...

00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:57.240
I didn\'t know
if they\'d take down my pants...

00:44:57.400 --> 00:44:59.400
but I could feel

00:44:59.560 --> 00:45:02.120
the chair leg down there.

00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:07.120
It was the same thought:

00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:10.400
these guys are out of control.

00:45:10.560 --> 00:45:14.640
They\'re losing it.
No one is controlling them.

00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:17.640
That\'s what you think,
but it was probably

00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:20.160
all arranged and planned.

00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:23.000
But at the time...

00:45:23.600 --> 00:45:26.600
you think, I either do what they want

00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:29.320
or I\'m not leaving here alive.

00:45:29.520 --> 00:45:31.560
I\'m going to be messed up.

00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:37.760
This is also an interesting case.
He was detained by the Basque Police.

00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:42.360
Part of what he says
is a scenario that we often see.

00:45:42.520 --> 00:45:45.640
A large part
of the emotional break point is about

00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:47.520
something he mentions.

00:45:47.640 --> 00:45:50.920
The feeling you eventually have

00:45:51.640 --> 00:45:53.160
that it won\'t end well.

00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:57.520
So, I prefer to sign or confess

00:45:57.680 --> 00:46:00.320
whatever is necessary
as long as this stops.

00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:04.560
If you noticed...

00:46:04.720 --> 00:46:07.160
as that anguish grows,

00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:08.840
he rolls up his sleeves,

00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:11.280
then rolls them down again.

00:46:12.040 --> 00:46:15.080
And the movements he makes
when talking about

00:46:15.240 --> 00:46:18.160
that threat of rape.

00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:22.800
He can feel the broken chair leg

00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:26.640
getting closer to his anus.

00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:28.400
He can feel it.

00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:33.320
And all the time he\'s wondering

00:46:33.520 --> 00:46:35.040
if they\'re going to do it.

00:46:35.640 --> 00:46:38.960
Those are the emotional break points.

00:48:18.080 --> 00:48:20.120
That\'s what I went through...

00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:22.960
I find that the hardest...

00:48:23.120 --> 00:48:25.240
-It\'s still with you.
-Even today.

00:48:25.400 --> 00:48:28.560
-You can tell from your face.
-It\'s there.

00:48:32.560 --> 00:48:34.280
In the end, I don\'t know...

00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:37.120
I don\'t know...

00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:40.160
what I\'m afraid of, you know?

00:48:41.040 --> 00:48:42.640
I knew

00:48:43.120 --> 00:48:45.400
that I\'d feel guilty about them.

00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:51.680
They could have made me confess,
but accusing the others...

00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:56.680
To a certain extent,

00:48:56.840 --> 00:49:00.520
I was forced to accuse the other four.

00:49:00.680 --> 00:49:03.360
-Rather than yourself?
-I don\'t get it.

00:49:03.520 --> 00:49:05.920
What do they get out of it?

00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:08.120
But that\'s what they did.

00:49:09.520 --> 00:49:13.000
Particularly when two of them were...

00:49:14.600 --> 00:49:17.360
-Especially important?
-Especially important.

00:49:17.520 --> 00:49:20.400
And only one of them

00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:24.880
went to detain him that same day.
The other one was detained

00:49:25.040 --> 00:49:26.560
later on.

00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:31.800
-The same day they detained you?
-One of them.

00:49:31.960 --> 00:49:34.720
-One was detained?
-Yes.

00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:37.880
When they detained the other one
my world collapsed.

00:49:38.040 --> 00:49:39.680
I was already inside.

00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:42.200
-You found out?
-It was tough for me.

00:49:43.280 --> 00:49:45.760
-Did you feel responsible?
-Yes.

00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:48.760
Saioa\'s grandmother.
You say, okay, I cracked.

00:49:48.920 --> 00:49:50.960
The theory is simple.

00:49:51.120 --> 00:49:53.720
The theory is simple.
It\'s easy to say:

00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:59.760
no, you\'re not responsible.
They forced you to say it.

00:49:59.920 --> 00:50:02.400
Something you didn\'t mean at all.

00:50:03.520 --> 00:50:05.280
Well, there you go.

00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:08.000
When you see him leaving.

00:50:09.080 --> 00:50:13.160
What\'s more, when you see
that the police that are taking her

00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:16.560
are the same ones that detained you.

00:50:23.600 --> 00:50:26.760
-Did you pack it yourself?
-Yes.

00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:57.560
TORTURE

00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:02.760
PSYCHOLOGICAL TORTURE

00:51:04.600 --> 00:51:09.720
SECTION 5
TECHNIQUES OF PSYCHOLOGICAL TORTURE

00:51:50.200 --> 00:51:54.120
I felt like I was vanishing
from the world.

00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:58.280
It was like they didn\'t want me
to know where I was.

00:52:02.200 --> 00:52:04.520
I didn\'t know where I was,
but I thought:

00:52:04.680 --> 00:52:07.160
Okay, Egoitz, you\'re in Tres Cantos.

00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:10.640
Now let\'s see what happens...

00:52:13.200 --> 00:52:16.520
There were a lot of people,
a lot of activity.

00:52:16.680 --> 00:52:20.840
I think they were all Civil Guards,
but there was hustle and bustle.

00:52:21.600 --> 00:52:24.920
There were a few corridors,
but I do remember the stairs...

00:52:25.080 --> 00:52:28.640
-You didn\'t see anything?
-No, I was blindfolded.

00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:32.920
But I remember going down the stairs.

00:52:33.080 --> 00:52:35.680
Then down again, and again.

00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:38.920
We might only have gone down
one floor.

00:52:39.680 --> 00:52:44.600
But I felt
I was going down into a hole.

00:52:45.080 --> 00:52:47.840
And all I could think was...

00:52:48.520 --> 00:52:51.760
God help me.

00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:54.120
That was the feeling I had.

00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:58.360
I don\'t know where we were going.

00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:02.800
They took me down several corridors

00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:06.520
and kept saying:
\"Duck down!\" They said it a lot.

00:53:06.640 --> 00:53:11.160
Maybe there was nothing and it was
just so you felt you were in a hole.

00:53:11.320 --> 00:53:14.960
Anyway, they\'d say that:
\"Duck down, mind the step...\"

00:53:15.120 --> 00:53:17.720
And I remember that

00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:22.880
the very first thing I noticed
before going into the cell,

00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:26.080
walking down the stairs

00:53:26.240 --> 00:53:28.160
and then on a flat surface,

00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:29.960
was a scream.

00:53:30.640 --> 00:53:32.200
It was like...

00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:36.680
someone who was drowning.

00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:41.640
I thought it was Erica.

00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:44.000
And it was that scream

00:53:44.720 --> 00:53:48.640
and the voice of a Civil Guard saying:
\"Fucking talk already!\"

00:53:48.800 --> 00:53:54.120
That was the first thing I heard
when I reached Madrid.

00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:11.160
Whenever you\'re ready.

00:54:12.240 --> 00:54:14.320
Time for the meeting.

00:54:14.520 --> 00:54:16.640
-Are you guys ready?
-In a minute.

00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:19.360
Okay, I\'ll set things up.

00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:23.200
-All good? Got the cases?
-Yes.

00:54:26.440 --> 00:54:28.800
Every day we start later.

00:54:29.600 --> 00:54:30.440
Yes.

00:54:30.600 --> 00:54:33.840
-No, it\'s my fault.
-That\'s why I laughed.

00:54:35.720 --> 00:54:37.440
No worries.

00:54:37.600 --> 00:54:41.000
Right now we\'re working on
support and training

00:54:41.160 --> 00:54:43.080
with teams
in Ukraine, Venezuela, Chile,

00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:44.960
Tunisia and Peru.

00:54:45.120 --> 00:54:48.960
Initially, we\'ve almost finished
with Peru.

00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:52.560
But I wanted to say
that what we\'re seeing

00:54:53.600 --> 00:54:56.800
is that the teams are requesting

00:54:56.960 --> 00:55:00.520
more support documenting
psychological torture.

00:55:01.040 --> 00:55:02.960
Our case
in the Inter-American Court.

00:55:03.120 --> 00:55:06.720
-Which one?
-Do you remember the Mexican guy...

00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:09.280
-The journalist.
-The journalist.

00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:11.600
The one with loads of reports?

00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:13.640
The UN has taken the case.

00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:18.320
Good news always helps.

00:55:18.520 --> 00:55:20.320
Any more news from...?

00:55:20.520 --> 00:55:22.520
Two asylum cases.

00:55:23.120 --> 00:55:25.440
One is from Mali.

00:55:25.600 --> 00:55:27.640
The other is from Guinea.

00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:30.640
We have to think ahead to autumn

00:55:30.800 --> 00:55:31.880
and the Chileans.

00:55:32.560 --> 00:55:36.520
We have police going into
Mapuche territory

00:55:36.680 --> 00:55:39.560
and carrying out group torture.

00:55:39.720 --> 00:55:41.280
We\'ve already had

00:55:41.440 --> 00:55:44.680
episodes where 300 police
have suddenly turned up...

00:55:52.040 --> 00:55:53.400
-Yes?
-Hello.

00:55:53.560 --> 00:55:55.840
Ah, how are you?
Come in.

00:55:56.440 --> 00:55:58.080
This is my office.

00:55:59.640 --> 00:56:02.760
The Civil Guard HQ is over there.

00:56:04.440 --> 00:56:06.200
Right next door.

00:56:06.360 --> 00:56:07.640
Over the road.

00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:11.360
When you said the interview
was here, I thought

00:56:11.520 --> 00:56:15.400
it would be ironic
to talk about torture next to the HQ.

00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:18.520
-Well, we\'re neighbours.
-You get on okay?

00:56:18.680 --> 00:56:22.080
We mind our own business.

00:56:24.640 --> 00:56:27.560
TORTURE CHAMBER
WAIT YOUR TURN

00:56:27.720 --> 00:56:30.840
Psychological torture occurs when

00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:33.960
I use different mechanisms

00:56:34.120 --> 00:56:37.920
to cause the physical, emotional,

00:56:38.080 --> 00:56:42.160
and cognitive exhaustion
of the person\'s thought process.

00:56:42.320 --> 00:56:44.760
This enables me to dominate

00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:46.440
that person\'s will.

00:56:46.600 --> 00:56:50.680
Thus I can make them do things
they normally wouldn\'t.

00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:55.920
You can achieve this by using pain
or many other techniques.

00:56:56.080 --> 00:56:58.960
So what we have here

00:56:59.640 --> 00:57:02.800
are three degrees or levels.

00:57:03.440 --> 00:57:06.760
The first would be the kind
of psychological torture

00:57:07.520 --> 00:57:11.840
where there are actually only words.

00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:14.440
Threats, for examples.

00:57:14.600 --> 00:57:16.720
When I threaten you,

00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:21.520
I\'m conveying a message,
communicating,

00:57:21.640 --> 00:57:25.280
what will happen
if you don\'t do what I want.

00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:27.320
The second level involves

00:57:27.520 --> 00:57:29.080
how I control your body

00:57:29.680 --> 00:57:30.840
without touching it.

00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:36.600
I can cause emotional fatigue,
cognitive exhaustion,

00:57:37.200 --> 00:57:40.840
which makes me more inclined
to do what you want.

00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:44.520
That means depriving you
of food, water,

00:57:44.680 --> 00:57:47.280
making you stand
for long periods.

00:57:48.040 --> 00:57:52.120
The third level would be
when I do inflict physical pain,

00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:58.120
but the psychological response
is out of proportion.

00:57:58.280 --> 00:58:02.040
A clear example is the use of bags
in the Basque Country

00:58:02.200 --> 00:58:05.440
or waterboarding in Guantánamo.

00:58:06.040 --> 00:58:08.200
From a physiological point of view,

00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:11.440
a person can stand
two minutes without breathing.

00:58:12.520 --> 00:58:14.440
But when a bag is over your head,

00:58:14.600 --> 00:58:17.920
within five seconds
you have the feeling

00:58:18.080 --> 00:58:19.320
you\'re going to die.

00:58:19.520 --> 00:58:21.320
There is a disparity

00:58:21.520 --> 00:58:23.360
between the subjective feeling

00:58:23.520 --> 00:58:26.160
of suffocating and being about to die,

00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:29.080
and what the body could withstand.

00:58:29.680 --> 00:58:31.720
So the question is:

00:58:31.880 --> 00:58:35.320
is it physical torture?
Yes, because you can\'t breath,

00:58:35.520 --> 00:58:39.360
but it\'s psychological
because the human mind\'s response

00:58:39.520 --> 00:58:43.240
is much greater
than the physical discomfort.

00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:45.000
So the reaction is:

00:58:45.160 --> 00:58:47.360
I\'m dying, I\'m dying.

00:58:47.520 --> 00:58:49.520
I\'ll do whatever you say.

00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:52.680
There is something

00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:55.760
that I find very hard
to wrap my head around.

00:58:56.840 --> 00:58:58.600
The mind of a torturer.

00:58:59.200 --> 00:59:02.200
Don\'t say \"torturer\",
say \"perpetrator\", okay?

00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:04.520
Let\'s imagine

00:59:04.640 --> 00:59:07.800
that in every act that is perpetrated

00:59:07.960 --> 00:59:09.440
there is a chain.

00:59:09.600 --> 00:59:14.520
So, the one inflicting torture
is the most involved.

00:59:14.680 --> 00:59:17.040
The one who is physically violent,

00:59:17.200 --> 00:59:19.560
who carries out the interrogation.

00:59:19.720 --> 00:59:21.360
He stands out most.

00:59:21.520 --> 00:59:25.440
But he takes his orders from
an intermediary.

00:59:25.600 --> 00:59:29.440
This is the one who plans it,
organises the detention.

00:59:29.600 --> 00:59:32.400
He does not usually appear very often

00:59:32.560 --> 00:59:35.440
where the torture
is being carried out.

00:59:35.600 --> 00:59:39.400
There is someone above him
who designs the overall strategy.

00:59:39.560 --> 00:59:42.600
This is the planner.
And at the top, the ideologist.

00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:44.560
The ideologist decides

00:59:44.720 --> 00:59:48.080
that the political aim
is to eradicate insurgency.

00:59:48.240 --> 00:59:51.800
He thinks it through calmly.
He\'s an intellectual, etc.

00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:54.640
Consequently, that chain

00:59:54.800 --> 00:59:58.000
enables the phenomenon
of moral disengagement.

00:59:58.160 --> 01:00:00.440
The first is not directly involved.

01:00:00.600 --> 01:00:02.520
The last does what he\'s ordered.

01:00:02.640 --> 01:00:04.960
It\'s a dispersal of responsibility.

01:00:05.120 --> 01:00:07.440
What you refer to as \"torturer\",

01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:09.360
the question is:

01:00:09.520 --> 01:00:12.200
what does he call himself?

01:00:12.800 --> 01:00:15.760
Of course
he will never call himself \"torturer\".

01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:17.280
Your torturer

01:00:17.440 --> 01:00:20.880
is a professional
who is performing a task

01:00:21.040 --> 01:00:24.360
that is technically complex
and requires training.

01:00:24.520 --> 01:00:27.520
If he\'s there it\'s because
he\'s good at his job.

01:00:29.120 --> 01:00:30.760
In those groups,

01:00:30.920 --> 01:00:34.040
is there someone
who doesn\'t pull the trigger,

01:00:34.200 --> 01:00:38.120
but is aware of the fact
torture is being practised?

01:00:39.520 --> 01:00:41.600
Two things.
Firstly...

01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:46.080
You need to protect

01:00:46.240 --> 01:00:48.600
your own psychological integrity

01:00:48.760 --> 01:00:51.520
in order to survive.
You cannot survive

01:00:51.640 --> 01:00:53.880
feeling you\'re a despicable person.

01:00:54.040 --> 01:00:57.280
There are various cognitive strategies

01:00:57.440 --> 01:00:59.800
to justify to yourself
what you are doing.

01:01:00.920 --> 01:01:04.080
So what do you do?
You dehumanise the victim.

01:01:04.800 --> 01:01:07.000
You blame that person.

01:01:07.160 --> 01:01:09.320
They should have collaborated.

01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:13.040
You use derogatory terms,
you demand obedience.

01:01:13.200 --> 01:01:15.520
There are a series of mechanisms

01:01:16.080 --> 01:01:18.720
that enable you to save face.

01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:23.320
There is an ideological justification.
This is normally minimal.

01:01:23.520 --> 01:01:27.520
The communists want to divide
the country. That\'s it.

01:01:28.200 --> 01:01:30.600
They don\'t accept their role.

01:01:30.760 --> 01:01:33.320
You use that label, he doesn\'t.

01:01:34.840 --> 01:01:36.760
I think it\'s strange

01:01:36.920 --> 01:01:39.160
how society has two value systems.

01:01:39.320 --> 01:01:42.720
One system that teaches us
certain values

01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:46.040
and produces a civilian population

01:01:46.200 --> 01:01:48.040
that is against torture,

01:01:48.200 --> 01:01:52.720
yet there is a system underneath
encouraging and creating torturers.

01:01:52.880 --> 01:01:55.000
There aren\'t two systems.

01:01:55.160 --> 01:01:58.200
There is only one,
but it uses doublespeak.

01:01:58.720 --> 01:02:03.600
If I assess the credibility
of a torture victim

01:02:04.080 --> 01:02:05.200
in Palestine,

01:02:05.360 --> 01:02:07.360
I won\'t have any trouble

01:02:07.520 --> 01:02:10.320
in having it accepted.

01:02:10.520 --> 01:02:13.760
If I have the case of Spanish police,

01:02:13.920 --> 01:02:16.680
whatever force they may be,

01:02:17.520 --> 01:02:19.800
public opinion will change radically.

01:02:19.960 --> 01:02:22.040
There is a link between

01:02:22.200 --> 01:02:25.680
the distance that exists
between the person judging

01:02:25.840 --> 01:02:27.520
and the acts of violence,

01:02:27.640 --> 01:02:29.960
and to what extent
I believe it\'s true.

01:02:30.120 --> 01:02:34.000
That occurs at political, sociological

01:02:34.160 --> 01:02:36.320
and judicial level.

01:02:36.520 --> 01:02:38.520
Consequently, I need to believe

01:02:38.640 --> 01:02:42.520
that I live in an organised,
safe, democratic environment.

01:02:43.560 --> 01:02:45.680
From that perspective,

01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:47.920
what we have is

01:02:48.080 --> 01:02:49.640
a laissez-faire attitude.

01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:52.640
There is tolerance,
it\'s a democratic country

01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:55.760
with invisible lines
that can\'t be crossed.

01:02:55.920 --> 01:02:59.640
As soon as someone steps on
the invisible line,

01:02:59.800 --> 01:03:02.080
the Spanish State,

01:03:02.240 --> 01:03:04.400
Germany...

01:03:04.560 --> 01:03:06.360
United States...

01:03:06.520 --> 01:03:08.680
as soon as the line is stepped on,

01:03:08.840 --> 01:03:11.680
what I call the \"crouching monster\"
emerges.

01:03:12.280 --> 01:03:15.200
It never vanished,
it was always underneath...

01:03:15.360 --> 01:03:16.680
and it emerges.

01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:18.720
Torture is systemic.

01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:22.200
It\'s a system.
Always regard it as such.

01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:24.800
Don\'t look for a sadistic perp.

01:03:24.960 --> 01:03:26.520
Look for the system

01:03:26.680 --> 01:03:29.280
that allows torture to be inflicted.

01:03:36.120 --> 01:03:38.320
If you had to describe

01:03:38.520 --> 01:03:40.640
the hard part,

01:03:40.800 --> 01:03:43.120
the part with ill-treatment,

01:03:43.840 --> 01:03:45.640
what would that consist of?

01:03:48.520 --> 01:03:50.240
More than the beatings?

01:03:50.400 --> 01:03:53.960
-Or the beatings.
-Obviously they hurt.

01:03:54.120 --> 01:03:57.360
But I think it\'s more about
how they hurt you

01:03:57.520 --> 01:03:59.400
as a person.

01:03:59.920 --> 01:04:01.520
The fact that

01:04:01.680 --> 01:04:03.400
you feel like an insect.

01:04:03.560 --> 01:04:06.200
You\'re a normal person
and suddenly

01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:08.360
your feelings change

01:04:08.520 --> 01:04:13.200
and you think you\'re a cockroach,
you\'re worthless.

01:04:15.080 --> 01:04:18.400
And they can do
whatever they want with you.

01:04:18.560 --> 01:04:20.520
It\'s very easy.

01:04:21.240 --> 01:04:24.800
It\'s not that you\'re ready
to do it,

01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:29.400
but you\'ve lost the will
to decide what you do or don\'t want.

01:04:30.200 --> 01:04:31.720
It\'s someone that...

01:04:32.760 --> 01:04:35.800
It\'s like you\'re a puppet

01:04:35.960 --> 01:04:39.160
and someone controls what you do.

01:04:40.720 --> 01:04:42.880
Is that after several beatings?

01:04:43.880 --> 01:04:46.440
-It might sound lurid...
-Right.

01:04:46.600 --> 01:04:47.880
In any case,

01:04:48.040 --> 01:04:51.240
the beatings hurt

01:04:51.680 --> 01:04:53.120
and leave a mark.

01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:57.400
But I think it\'s more
the intimidation...

01:04:59.600 --> 01:05:03.000
\"I\'m gonna kill you!\"
They might never do it.

01:05:03.160 --> 01:05:04.960
\"I\'m gonna kill you!\"

01:05:05.120 --> 01:05:06.600
\"I\'m gonna rape you!\"

01:05:06.760 --> 01:05:11.320
Eventually, they make you believe
all those things,

01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:14.360
you think it\'s the end

01:05:14.520 --> 01:05:16.920
and you can\'t take it anymore.

01:05:17.760 --> 01:05:19.680
The beatings do hurt.

01:05:19.840 --> 01:05:23.160
I remember they hit me with a rod
and it hurt.

01:05:23.320 --> 01:05:25.320
But I think that...

01:05:25.520 --> 01:05:27.560
No, I don\'t believe it, I\'m positive,

01:05:27.720 --> 01:05:31.440
because I\'ve experienced
it in person,

01:05:31.600 --> 01:05:35.040
that their mind games
do a lot more damage.

01:06:21.920 --> 01:06:25.400
\"Torture and ill-treatment
in the Basque Country 1960-2014\"

01:10:48.280 --> 01:10:51.520
This is where we do
the digitalisation process.

01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:53.080
They leave it here for me

01:10:53.640 --> 01:10:56.360
and this is what it would look like.

01:10:56.520 --> 01:10:59.560
So, you\'ve got the documents here,

01:10:59.720 --> 01:11:01.840
all the digital stuff...

01:11:02.720 --> 01:11:05.520
These are then taken
to the Criminology Institute.

01:11:05.680 --> 01:11:07.760
The first ones I saw are Basque Govt.

01:11:07.920 --> 01:11:10.600
This one\'s from Navarre,
are you doing it there too?

01:11:10.760 --> 01:11:11.720
Yes, we are.

01:11:11.880 --> 01:11:15.840
We started from 1960-1978
which is when the project took place.

01:11:16.000 --> 01:11:19.320
Now there\'s an expectation
to continue with this project

01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:23.560
and to use the same method,
the same teams and the same approach.

01:11:23.720 --> 01:11:26.320
That\'s in addition to the 5,000
that are already...

01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:29.680
It must be
because it all looks very similar

01:11:29.840 --> 01:11:32.240
and it\'s talking about the same issue.

01:11:33.040 --> 01:11:34.360
Let\'s head to Criminology

01:11:34.520 --> 01:11:38.320
and deliver the ones
that are ready to go.

01:12:45.960 --> 01:12:47.680
-Here are a few more folders.
-Hi.

01:12:47.840 --> 01:12:49.600
-This is Ander.
-Hi.

01:12:49.760 --> 01:12:50.640
Right.

01:12:54.560 --> 01:12:57.120
Right, I\'ve got the small report here.

01:12:58.160 --> 01:12:59.520
What is torture?

01:13:00.080 --> 01:13:04.720
The definition of torture
is split across three key elements.

01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:07.800
There\'s the material element
which is harming someone

01:13:07.960 --> 01:13:11.440
both physically
and/or psychologically.

01:13:11.600 --> 01:13:16.600
There\'s the teleological element
which is the purpose of the torture,

01:13:16.760 --> 01:13:19.080
and then
there\'s the qualified perpetrator

01:13:19.240 --> 01:13:21.160
who has to either be a public official

01:13:21.320 --> 01:13:24.000
or someone who carries out that act

01:13:24.160 --> 01:13:26.280
under an official\'s orders.

01:13:26.440 --> 01:13:29.920
So, therein lies
the gravity of the crime

01:13:30.080 --> 01:13:32.120
because the person who carries it out

01:13:32.280 --> 01:13:36.160
is someone in authority,

01:13:36.320 --> 01:13:39.120
someone who should be the first
to comply with the rules

01:13:39.280 --> 01:13:42.720
and who also has all the tools
at their disposal

01:13:42.880 --> 01:13:46.520
to get away with that crime.

01:13:46.680 --> 01:13:49.840
That discussion could be had
between a doctor and a lawyer.

01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:51.760
The lawyer would be right.

01:13:51.920 --> 01:13:55.760
Why does the word \"torture\" appear
in the Medical Code of Ethics

01:13:55.920 --> 01:13:58.680
without anyone needing
to explain its definition?

01:13:59.520 --> 01:14:02.400
What\'s torture?
Here\'s the basic definition:

01:14:03.120 --> 01:14:06.560
when a detainee suffers
physical or psychological pain

01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:08.320
inflicted by a public official.

01:14:10.080 --> 01:14:12.840
There\'s a diagram
that I find really significant,

01:14:13.000 --> 01:14:15.200
I\'d never looked at it
that way before.

01:14:16.160 --> 01:14:18.080
This is a reinterpretation.

01:14:18.240 --> 01:14:22.880
We always hear about this part,
so, ETA\'s victims,

01:14:23.040 --> 01:14:24.520
direct collateral,

01:14:24.680 --> 01:14:28.720
but nobody talks
about this huge circle:

01:14:28.880 --> 01:14:30.520
the torture victims.

01:14:30.640 --> 01:14:33.520
And the figures here...

01:14:33.680 --> 01:14:36.200
You\'ve documented 5,000 cases,

01:14:36.880 --> 01:14:38.640
how should they be interpreted?

01:14:39.680 --> 01:14:42.280
Well, some cases
were handled officially

01:14:42.880 --> 01:14:44.960
with institutional resources

01:14:45.120 --> 01:14:48.680
and perpetrators being prosecuted,

01:14:48.840 --> 01:14:51.520
whereas with other cases,
this wasn\'t carried out.

01:14:52.080 --> 01:14:55.560
There\'s this pocket
with a huge question mark inside it.

01:14:55.720 --> 01:14:57.960
Concerning prisoners
and torture victims,

01:14:58.120 --> 01:15:00.960
that would mean that
from the 60s until now,

01:15:01.120 --> 01:15:05.360
around 20,000 have been detained
in the Basque Country and Navarre.

01:15:06.400 --> 01:15:11.640
From those 20,000 people,
almost 10,000 were affected.

01:15:12.800 --> 01:15:14.920
-Ten thousand cases of torture?
-Yes.

01:15:15.080 --> 01:15:17.680
Of people who don\'t want
to talk about it even now.

01:15:19.520 --> 01:15:21.960
A concept that stood out to me

01:15:22.120 --> 01:15:25.880
was the cross-sectional
statistical approach.

01:15:26.520 --> 01:15:32.120
You start looking at the numbers
and the data provided here

01:15:32.280 --> 01:15:34.520
and so many conclusions
can be drawn from it.

01:15:34.680 --> 01:15:38.120
You\'ve gathered so much information

01:15:38.280 --> 01:15:40.520
and have really broken it down.

01:15:40.640 --> 01:15:44.680
There\'s one piece of information
that stood out to me in all of this.

01:15:45.760 --> 01:15:49.240
There has been more torture
under a democracy than a dictatorship.

01:15:49.400 --> 01:15:51.080
How is this possible?

01:15:51.240 --> 01:15:54.720
There\'s a bias in this investigation:
the further we delve,

01:15:54.880 --> 01:15:57.400
the less info we have
because of disappearances.

01:15:58.040 --> 01:16:01.640
But you\'re right,
there was a point in the early sixties

01:16:02.240 --> 01:16:04.720
where there were
an awful lot of cases.

01:16:05.520 --> 01:16:09.040
And very serious cases.
They were some tough years...

01:16:09.200 --> 01:16:14.080
Then there were guilty verdicts
in the early eighties.

01:16:14.240 --> 01:16:16.200
When some cases came to light,

01:16:16.880 --> 01:16:20.080
they went to trial
and that\'s when some methods changed.

01:16:20.240 --> 01:16:22.080
Since the Zabalza case...

01:16:23.200 --> 01:16:25.560
using bathtubs
became far less popular.

01:16:26.120 --> 01:16:28.240
Not bags, but bathtubs.

01:16:29.280 --> 01:16:30.760
You can tell.

01:16:31.680 --> 01:16:35.360
And in the last few years,
bathtubs seem to have become obsolete.

01:16:35.520 --> 01:16:37.400
Someone must\'ve said:

01:16:37.560 --> 01:16:41.240
\"Don\'t you dare use this
on anyone else.\"

01:16:41.760 --> 01:16:44.640
We\'ve been able to gauge that
from the database.

01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:47.840
There\'s a strange statistic here:

01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:51.760
the number of torture cases
from the Basque Police seems very low

01:16:51.920 --> 01:16:54.320
until the year 2000,
and from that point on,

01:16:54.520 --> 01:16:57.400
they\'re right up there with
the Civil Guard and National Police.

01:16:58.320 --> 01:16:59.920
How do you explain this?

01:17:00.080 --> 01:17:01.920
This is info that has come out

01:17:02.080 --> 01:17:04.720
using the same relevance,
the same method,

01:17:05.400 --> 01:17:08.160
and the same Istanbul Protocol.

01:17:08.320 --> 01:17:12.320
It shows people are talking about
what they really experienced.

01:17:13.720 --> 01:17:18.400
I want to talk about the relationship
between torture and counterterrorism.

01:17:18.560 --> 01:17:21.920
This is a graph
of the number of tortures per year.

01:17:22.520 --> 01:17:24.360
I took the truce periods:

01:17:24.520 --> 01:17:26.440
ETA\'s political-military truce,

01:17:26.600 --> 01:17:28.800
Algiers, the Democratic Alternative,

01:17:28.960 --> 01:17:31.600
the Lizarra-Garazi Accord,
the T4 truce,

01:17:31.760 --> 01:17:33.880
and every time there\'s a truce...

01:17:34.840 --> 01:17:36.080
the numbers plummet.

01:17:36.240 --> 01:17:38.080
Because detentions drop.

01:17:38.240 --> 01:17:39.080
-It drops?
-Yes.

01:17:39.240 --> 01:17:42.320
And yet when there\'s a sudden spike,

01:17:42.520 --> 01:17:43.520
not long after...

01:17:43.640 --> 01:17:45.240
A tough blow for ETA.

01:17:45.920 --> 01:17:48.360
The first arrests of ETA\'s leaders...

01:17:49.880 --> 01:17:51.040
Zararte,

01:17:51.200 --> 01:17:53.800
Operation Sokoa, the Tolosa siege,

01:17:53.960 --> 01:17:55.520
Josu Ternera, Bidart,

01:17:55.640 --> 01:17:56.840
Mikel Antza.

01:17:57.440 --> 01:17:59.040
Those graphs refer to

01:17:59.200 --> 01:18:04.280
an undeniable
historical chronology of events.

01:18:04.440 --> 01:18:07.840
But, historically,
almost the opposite has been said.

01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:11.960
In other words,
they say that ETA used torture

01:18:12.120 --> 01:18:16.280
as an instrument
to destabilise the democratic system.

01:18:16.440 --> 01:18:18.880
You\'re talking about ETA\'s rules...

01:18:19.840 --> 01:18:22.080
which they presumably gave
to their members

01:18:22.240 --> 01:18:24.080
so they would always report torture.

01:18:24.680 --> 01:18:27.080
We\'re talking about the ETA manual.

01:18:27.760 --> 01:18:31.000
Does it exist? Have you found it?
What can you tell me about it?

01:18:31.160 --> 01:18:34.320
We\'ve taken official measures.

01:18:34.520 --> 01:18:36.320
You\'ve seen the original documents

01:18:36.520 --> 01:18:39.600
which are said
to have inspired ETA\'s manual.

01:18:39.760 --> 01:18:42.200
It\'s about two or three pages long.

01:18:42.360 --> 01:18:44.640
The manual didn\'t seem very efficient

01:18:44.800 --> 01:18:46.720
because
they didn\'t all report torture.

01:18:46.880 --> 01:18:49.160
It makes sense for ETA members,

01:18:49.320 --> 01:18:52.320
but for those who weren\'t ETA members,

01:18:52.520 --> 01:18:54.960
which was demonstrated
by their acquittals,

01:18:55.120 --> 01:18:57.600
why did they report torture
and ill-treatment?

01:18:59.960 --> 01:19:03.680
Reading this study, it seems
like within the Basque conflict,

01:19:04.240 --> 01:19:08.280
torture has been a mechanism
that\'s prolonged the situation.

01:19:08.440 --> 01:19:12.000
Even the police have said this.

01:19:13.080 --> 01:19:16.240
They didn\'t think that
a lot of these non-entities

01:19:16.400 --> 01:19:18.840
who could be controlled
would take it further

01:19:19.440 --> 01:19:21.720
for fear of being detained.

01:19:21.880 --> 01:19:23.520
\"I\'m not giving myself up!\"

01:19:24.080 --> 01:19:27.000
Because of that fear,
they crossed a few lines

01:19:27.160 --> 01:19:28.960
and they became people

01:19:29.120 --> 01:19:34.000
who were a lot more actively involved.

01:19:37.600 --> 01:19:40.160
There were 20 sentences
from 1972-1992,

01:19:40.320 --> 01:19:42.880
an average of two a year,
and then it was cut short.

01:19:43.720 --> 01:19:46.600
A conviction
was because a Basque judge

01:19:46.760 --> 01:19:48.960
or Basque doctor had reported it.

01:19:49.120 --> 01:19:51.720
Then they started
taking prisoners to Madrid.

01:19:51.880 --> 01:19:53.880
-Was it to cover it up?
-Of course.

01:19:54.520 --> 01:19:56.920
When judges here became more involved,

01:19:57.080 --> 01:19:59.680
joining us on medical investigations.

01:19:59.840 --> 01:20:03.040
They wanted to see it for themselves
and it didn\'t go down well.

01:20:03.600 --> 01:20:06.080
Madrid was a quick-fix solution

01:20:06.240 --> 01:20:10.280
to avoid the sudden inconvenience

01:20:10.440 --> 01:20:13.800
of a judge looking into it
more than they should.

01:20:15.120 --> 01:20:18.080
Before Strasbourg,
no other convictions were made

01:20:18.240 --> 01:20:20.680
and that was
due to a lack of investigation.

01:20:20.840 --> 01:20:22.400
Is it the same as saying:

01:20:22.560 --> 01:20:25.160
\"They convicted us
for not investigating it,

01:20:25.320 --> 01:20:27.520
but not for torture.\"

01:20:27.640 --> 01:20:30.440
Spain doesn\'t investigate torture.

01:20:30.600 --> 01:20:33.440
We don\'t know
if torture has taken place or not

01:20:33.600 --> 01:20:35.840
and they don\'t investigate it.

01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:37.880
It\'s one step further

01:20:38.360 --> 01:20:41.640
in the face of a practice
that is unpunished.

01:20:43.880 --> 01:20:46.680
26,113 documents had been analysed

01:20:46.840 --> 01:20:49.560
when this document was published.

01:20:50.560 --> 01:20:53.960
What documents were they?
Where did they come from?

01:20:54.120 --> 01:20:56.080
Everywhere.
Everywhere.

01:20:56.240 --> 01:20:57.440
From books,

01:20:57.600 --> 01:21:01.200
reports,
photocopies that people were hiding...

01:21:02.520 --> 01:21:04.200
archival materials...

01:21:04.760 --> 01:21:06.680
lawyers\' documents...

01:21:08.760 --> 01:21:12.920
I don\'t know if there\'s a way
of summing all of that up.

01:21:14.000 --> 01:21:15.520
Here\'s just one example.

01:21:16.320 --> 01:21:21.960
This book was about priests
that had been tortured.

01:21:22.120 --> 01:21:23.520
Here are their names

01:21:24.160 --> 01:21:26.080
and their testimonies.

01:21:26.840 --> 01:21:29.200
Juan Mari, Felipe...

01:21:30.240 --> 01:21:32.120
So, what did we do?

01:21:32.280 --> 01:21:35.760
We tracked them down
and asked them whether this was true.

01:21:36.760 --> 01:21:38.520
The court records,

01:21:38.680 --> 01:21:41.160
the fines they were charged with,
pictures...

01:21:42.280 --> 01:21:43.360
of the torture.

01:21:43.520 --> 01:21:48.040
This example can be supported
by these documents.

01:21:48.200 --> 01:21:50.760
So, this person,
this priest who was tortured,

01:21:51.520 --> 01:21:55.200
wrote the following:
\"Keep these newspaper cuttings

01:21:55.360 --> 01:21:57.400
for the day the truth comes out.\"

01:21:58.520 --> 01:22:00.000
The doctors recorded

01:22:00.840 --> 01:22:02.640
the ill-treatment and torture.

01:22:02.800 --> 01:22:04.960
This could have been lost,

01:22:05.120 --> 01:22:06.640
but we scanned a copy.

01:22:07.160 --> 01:22:08.200
This is one of them.

01:22:08.360 --> 01:22:10.800
Another journal on torture
from May 1985.

01:22:10.960 --> 01:22:12.720
Biscay Bar Association.

01:22:12.880 --> 01:22:14.640
I was at this meeting.

01:22:16.400 --> 01:22:18.520
\"Torture in Euskadi:

01:22:18.640 --> 01:22:21.720
Anti-Torture Group
from the University of Zorroaga.\"

01:22:22.400 --> 01:22:24.720
This book, written by Eva Forest,

01:22:24.880 --> 01:22:26.320
is a set of testimonies

01:22:26.520 --> 01:22:30.160
that she already gathered
from others while in prison.

01:22:31.000 --> 01:22:33.000
These are the medical notes

01:22:33.160 --> 01:22:34.440
with X-rays...

01:22:35.400 --> 01:22:36.800
documents.

01:22:37.240 --> 01:22:40.280
\"Orozco, 1983,
eight days in Indautxu.\"

01:22:41.160 --> 01:22:43.520
Next: \"Student, 25 years, male.\"

01:22:43.680 --> 01:22:45.520
\"18-year-old woman, student.\"

01:22:45.640 --> 01:22:46.600
Here it is.

01:22:46.760 --> 01:22:48.600
Here\'s what happened to her.

01:22:48.760 --> 01:22:51.840
-The doctors kept this hidden?
-They did.

01:22:52.520 --> 01:22:55.040
If a name was included,
we\'d track them down

01:22:55.200 --> 01:22:56.320
and call them:

01:22:56.520 --> 01:22:58.200
\"How did you have...\"

01:22:58.360 --> 01:23:00.400
\"Didn\'t you do an X-ray on them?\"

01:23:00.560 --> 01:23:02.840
\"Didn\'t you do a check-up
on these people?\"

01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:06.280
They didn\'t know
that these records had been kept.

01:23:06.760 --> 01:23:09.360
\"Is this yours? Was his foot...\"

01:23:10.400 --> 01:23:12.720
And when they said yes,
we included it.

01:23:13.880 --> 01:23:15.040
What are these?

01:23:15.200 --> 01:23:16.880
Magnetic tapes

01:23:17.520 --> 01:23:19.360
which someone picked up.

01:23:19.840 --> 01:23:22.520
We got them about a month ago.

01:23:23.520 --> 01:23:27.040
Someone who trusted in our project.

01:23:27.200 --> 01:23:30.600
We\'re going to convert these
to something more up to date.

01:23:30.760 --> 01:23:35.680
All of these are also DVDs
that have already been extracted.

01:23:35.840 --> 01:23:37.800
This is what it boils down to:

01:23:37.960 --> 01:23:40.440
the Basque government made recordings

01:23:40.600 --> 01:23:42.200
and this is someone\'s case.

01:23:42.360 --> 01:23:43.960
You have their name here.

01:23:44.120 --> 01:23:46.120
So, we\'ve got documentation,

01:23:46.280 --> 01:23:50.160
we have testimonies
where they say their piece,

01:23:50.320 --> 01:23:53.640
and expert evidence,
which is the Istanbul Protocol.

01:23:53.800 --> 01:23:56.680
The importance
of the project is also about

01:23:56.840 --> 01:24:00.320
gathering
all of these important documents

01:24:00.520 --> 01:24:02.080
for these kinds of reports

01:24:02.240 --> 01:24:04.120
which are now saved

01:24:04.280 --> 01:24:06.880
and digitised forever.

01:24:07.040 --> 01:24:08.680
And there\'s an archive

01:24:08.840 --> 01:24:12.240
that pools together
all of these components

01:24:12.400 --> 01:24:14.400
of documented evidence.

01:24:15.080 --> 01:24:19.520
We\'ve also shown testimonies
recorded by other organisations,

01:24:19.640 --> 01:24:21.600
but the ones we have,

01:24:21.760 --> 01:24:25.520
so you can see them,
were directly recorded by Paco.

01:24:25.640 --> 01:24:27.600
They\'ve been classified.

01:24:28.280 --> 01:24:30.040
I\'ve recorded 500 people.

01:24:30.200 --> 01:24:33.000
-Five hundred people?
-Yes.

01:24:35.640 --> 01:24:38.640
How did you feel
after hearing 500 accounts?

01:24:38.800 --> 01:24:40.560
It\'s been hard.

01:24:41.640 --> 01:24:45.240
This is the toughest project
we\'ve ever worked on.

01:24:45.960 --> 01:24:49.000
First, you\'re dealing with
those affected

01:24:49.160 --> 01:24:52.200
and then those
who supported and allowed it.

01:24:53.160 --> 01:24:57.720
So, sometimes,
we would carry around this sadness.

01:24:58.680 --> 01:25:01.240
When you see one case after another,

01:25:01.400 --> 01:25:02.680
the cruelty, etc...

01:25:03.280 --> 01:25:06.040
There\'s some
really harrowing stuff there.

01:25:08.520 --> 01:25:11.280
Can I see those archives?
Is that possible?

01:25:11.440 --> 01:25:12.880
Let\'s take a look.

01:25:13.040 --> 01:25:14.520
The files...

01:25:14.680 --> 01:25:17.880
You can\'t see a specific example,
but that folder

01:25:18.040 --> 01:25:19.240
contains documents.

01:25:19.400 --> 01:25:21.040
Take your pick.

01:25:21.600 --> 01:25:23.760
Here\'s part of it.

01:25:24.880 --> 01:25:29.360
As I said, these are physical folders,
but we have digital ones.

01:25:29.520 --> 01:25:34.520
Each folder has a digitised version
on the computer.

01:25:34.680 --> 01:25:36.920
Then we have a database

01:25:37.080 --> 01:25:40.880
that contains information on each case

01:25:41.040 --> 01:25:44.840
to then carry out
any quantitative analyses

01:25:45.000 --> 01:25:46.800
that appear in the report.

01:25:46.960 --> 01:25:49.720
There are numbers going
from 2,000-and-something

01:25:49.880 --> 01:25:53.600
to 2,516 to 2,565,

01:25:53.760 --> 01:25:56.000
2,741 to 2799...

01:25:57.000 --> 01:26:01.960
-Is each piece of paper a case?
-Of course.

01:26:02.800 --> 01:26:04.680
Sometimes containing more information.

01:26:05.600 --> 01:26:07.200
If we take this out...

01:26:07.360 --> 01:26:09.440
-The physical folder?
-Yes.

01:26:09.600 --> 01:26:11.080
Trust me.

01:26:11.840 --> 01:26:16.160
-Some have more or fewer documents...
-Each represents one person?

01:26:16.320 --> 01:26:17.760
That\'s right.

01:26:18.520 --> 01:26:20.320
Wow, unbelievable.

01:26:26.520 --> 01:26:31.200
An important outcome of this is that
they\'ve been sent to those people.

01:26:31.360 --> 01:26:35.080
If you\'re sitting at home one day
and receive an envelope...

01:26:36.080 --> 01:26:38.360
from the government with your case

01:26:38.520 --> 01:26:40.920
including a DVD,
papers and photocopies

01:26:41.080 --> 01:26:43.200
that prove your case,
that\'s important.

01:26:44.000 --> 01:26:46.960
The impact
is that the documents have arrived

01:26:47.120 --> 01:26:48.840
and Mum or Dad

01:26:49.000 --> 01:26:51.120
have gathered the kids together
and said:

01:26:51.280 --> 01:26:54.200
\"I\'ve never known
how to broach this with you,

01:26:54.360 --> 01:26:56.120
this is what happened.\"

01:28:21.640 --> 01:28:23.440
TORTURE

01:28:23.600 --> 01:28:26.360
ACCUSATION

01:28:32.320 --> 01:28:34.040
NO TO TORTURE

01:28:58.440 --> 01:29:02.040
REPARATIONS FOR TRUE JUSTICE

01:29:13.360 --> 01:29:15.640
\"Torture project:

01:29:15.800 --> 01:29:17.400
Joxe Iriarte Zabaleta.

01:29:19.800 --> 01:29:23.960
The book states that you were tortured

01:29:24.120 --> 01:29:26.400
at the Rentería y Antiguo barracks,

01:29:26.560 --> 01:29:29.080
as this subsequent document
illustrates.\"

01:29:30.080 --> 01:29:31.360
Right...

01:29:33.640 --> 01:29:37.960
\"Tortured by the Civil Guard.
Period of solitary confinement.

01:29:39.800 --> 01:29:42.840
Type of torture inflicted:
physical and psychological.

01:29:43.000 --> 01:29:45.520
Was not reported at the time.\"

01:29:50.160 --> 01:29:53.640
Except for sexual torture,
you experienced...

01:29:55.960 --> 01:29:57.720
everything else.

01:30:00.640 --> 01:30:02.560
\"Blows to the head

01:30:04.520 --> 01:30:06.840
with hands, fists,

01:30:09.040 --> 01:30:11.840
debilitation,
forced to stand on tiptoes,

01:30:12.320 --> 01:30:14.200
strenuous physical exercise,

01:30:14.360 --> 01:30:16.000
positional torture...

01:30:16.920 --> 01:30:18.000
threats,

01:30:18.160 --> 01:30:19.800
threats of torture,

01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:23.400
prolonged interrogation,

01:30:23.560 --> 01:30:25.320
constant noise,

01:30:25.520 --> 01:30:26.840
insults, humiliation,

01:30:27.000 --> 01:30:29.520
hair-pulling, incessant questions,

01:30:29.640 --> 01:30:31.360
light and sound torture,

01:30:33.080 --> 01:30:35.960
good cop, bad cop,

01:30:36.760 --> 01:30:39.120
creating feelings of guilt...\"

01:30:43.440 --> 01:30:46.360
It\'s hard to read this

01:30:48.000 --> 01:30:50.280
in such a clinical way.

01:30:52.400 --> 01:30:54.800
What\'s stayed with you in all of this?

01:30:56.960 --> 01:30:57.840
Well...

01:30:58.600 --> 01:31:03.320
I would often dream that I had
ended up in the hands of the police...

01:31:05.320 --> 01:31:11.240
and that
they were brutally torturing me.

01:31:12.080 --> 01:31:16.560
But that has more to do
with my own internalised fears.

01:31:17.280 --> 01:31:21.520
When I\'ve seen signs of torture,

01:31:21.640 --> 01:31:26.360
and I\'m referring
to the most brutal kind of torture,

01:31:26.520 --> 01:31:30.200
or when I\'ve read about

01:31:31.120 --> 01:31:34.600
sexual assault in police stations

01:31:34.760 --> 01:31:37.240
against women,

01:31:37.960 --> 01:31:41.920
it\'s made my stomach turn

01:31:42.440 --> 01:31:46.400
and I\'ve internalised it.

01:31:47.040 --> 01:31:50.400
It\'s very different
to look at it from the outside

01:31:50.560 --> 01:31:53.960
in a clinical or empathetic way,

01:31:54.120 --> 01:31:56.760
versus actually seeing it happen

01:31:56.920 --> 01:31:59.600
and quickly realising

01:31:59.760 --> 01:32:02.440
how these mechanisms work

01:32:02.600 --> 01:32:06.560
and just how awful reality is.

01:32:07.320 --> 01:32:11.840
You know what gets me?

01:32:15.240 --> 01:32:17.680
I knew that you\'d gone
to the police station

01:32:17.840 --> 01:32:20.040
since it was written in the book.

01:32:20.760 --> 01:32:22.200
But we...

01:32:24.520 --> 01:32:29.000
assumed that what happened to you
was part of the game,

01:32:29.160 --> 01:32:32.920
the price to be paid.

01:32:33.080 --> 01:32:35.120
Our family has never spoken
about this.

01:32:35.280 --> 01:32:37.440
When it comes to our family,

01:32:37.600 --> 01:32:40.720
it\'s not that I didn\'t want

01:32:41.920 --> 01:32:46.240
to talk about the tough times,

01:32:46.920 --> 01:32:49.720
it\'s just that I had taken a good look
at the system

01:32:49.880 --> 01:32:54.640
and because of that,
I\'d rationalised my life

01:32:54.800 --> 01:32:59.560
and learnt how to protect myself
from any future blows.

01:32:59.720 --> 01:33:02.120
Your way of coming to terms with it?

01:33:02.280 --> 01:33:03.560
Of course.

01:33:03.720 --> 01:33:08.680
I always knew that sooner or later,
I would be repressed.

01:33:08.840 --> 01:33:12.760
That\'s why
I had internalised that repression

01:33:12.920 --> 01:33:16.120
as one of the possible consequences
of my activism.

01:33:16.280 --> 01:33:18.120
I wasn\'t innocent in that aspect

01:33:18.280 --> 01:33:22.920
and that allows you to see things
from a different angle.

01:33:23.080 --> 01:33:24.840
That probably protected me

01:33:25.000 --> 01:33:27.320
from potentially
falling into depression.

01:33:27.720 --> 01:33:30.800
I was tortured as part of their game

01:33:30.960 --> 01:33:35.840
and that\'s how I managed to
get through it relatively unscathed.

01:33:36.800 --> 01:33:38.840
When I listen to you,

01:33:39.000 --> 01:33:41.360
I hear that Eutski tinko
or \"Resist\" chant.

01:33:41.520 --> 01:33:45.880
You mentally prepare yourself
for torture or any situation.

01:33:46.040 --> 01:33:48.960
It\'s reminiscent of the legend
of Itziar\'s son.

01:33:49.120 --> 01:33:52.160
That was the legend at the time,
and that\'s precisely why.

01:33:52.800 --> 01:33:56.720
They did everything to him,
every kind of torture,

01:33:56.880 --> 01:33:59.600
and the guy didn\'t say a word.

01:34:00.600 --> 01:34:02.840
What we went through was really tough,

01:34:03.400 --> 01:34:08.080
otherwise I wouldn\'t have
given up my friends\' names.

01:34:08.240 --> 01:34:12.000
I cracked on the third day

01:34:12.160 --> 01:34:14.120
when I just couldn\'t take it anymore.

01:34:14.280 --> 01:34:19.560
I was constantly negotiating
in my head

01:34:19.720 --> 01:34:24.240
how I could give them a name

01:34:26.040 --> 01:34:29.640
and cause the least possible damage.

01:34:29.800 --> 01:34:34.880
But that was a really painful process,

01:34:35.040 --> 01:34:38.600
giving up my friends\' names.

01:34:38.760 --> 01:34:41.720
I think when my friend

01:34:41.880 --> 01:34:45.120
gave up my name,

01:34:45.280 --> 01:34:47.960
he had gone through the same thing.

01:34:48.120 --> 01:34:50.320
That\'s something...

01:34:55.520 --> 01:34:57.440
This is the DVD with your testimony.

01:34:57.600 --> 01:35:00.160
I\'d like for us to watch it together,

01:35:00.320 --> 01:35:03.280
if that\'s okay with you.

01:35:03.880 --> 01:35:05.200
Of course.

01:35:05.880 --> 01:35:07.360
Okay.

01:35:14.520 --> 01:35:17.200
State your name and surname.

01:35:18.400 --> 01:35:21.800
My name is Joxe Iriarte Zabaleta.

01:35:22.880 --> 01:35:26.920
Tell us what happened

01:35:27.320 --> 01:35:29.160
during your detention.

01:35:29.960 --> 01:35:34.600
We were three young guys

01:35:34.760 --> 01:35:37.680
who were part of
the ETA command unit.

01:35:37.840 --> 01:35:43.440
It was midnight
when they knocked on the door.

01:35:43.600 --> 01:35:46.000
My family woke up
and asked who they were:

01:35:46.160 --> 01:35:47.800
\"The Civil Guard\", they said.

01:35:48.760 --> 01:35:53.640
And that\'s when
the interrogation started.

01:35:53.800 --> 01:35:56.760
They got me to do push-ups.

01:35:56.920 --> 01:36:01.320
After one, two, three hours,

01:36:02.280 --> 01:36:08.040
your head starts spinning,
you can\'t see anything,

01:36:08.200 --> 01:36:09.960
the walls are moving,

01:36:10.120 --> 01:36:12.120
your vision gets blurry,

01:36:13.680 --> 01:36:18.520
and you start finding it difficult
to control your mind.

01:36:18.640 --> 01:36:21.240
Then, out of nowhere,
they smacked me hard.

01:36:21.400 --> 01:36:26.840
I fell to the ground and they started
shouting: \"Fucking separatist!\"

01:36:28.320 --> 01:36:30.720
They started kicking and punching me

01:36:30.880 --> 01:36:33.840
without any explanation...

01:37:43.080 --> 01:37:44.720
You hear the news

01:37:44.880 --> 01:37:48.240
that one of the most violent,
most-wanted groups in Bilbao

01:37:48.400 --> 01:37:49.280
has fallen,

01:37:49.440 --> 01:37:53.160
everything starts to come out
and they start to say the names...

01:37:53.640 --> 01:37:55.840
It\'s life-changing.

01:37:56.000 --> 01:37:58.520
There\'s a before and after
in your life.

01:37:58.680 --> 01:38:00.840
That\'s when the fear set in.

01:38:01.000 --> 01:38:03.520
I always say that from that moment on,

01:38:03.640 --> 01:38:05.840
I\'ve been scared out of my mind.

01:38:06.960 --> 01:38:10.720
And you think:
what must they be doing to them?

01:38:10.880 --> 01:38:13.720
You know you have eight or ten days
ahead of you...

01:38:14.640 --> 01:38:16.120
and you can\'t do a thing.

01:38:18.080 --> 01:38:20.760
I felt the crack.

01:38:21.400 --> 01:38:24.920
I heard that sound
of when someone walks down the street

01:38:25.080 --> 01:38:26.800
and steps on a cockroach

01:38:26.960 --> 01:38:30.960
and it makes that crunchy sound
when you step on it,

01:38:31.120 --> 01:38:34.440
I swear I felt that sound internally.

01:38:35.400 --> 01:38:39.240
I used to be one person
and then I was another.

01:38:39.960 --> 01:38:43.200
But after
going through the Protocol...

01:38:44.680 --> 01:38:49.240
that sound that I felt inside
made sense.

01:38:49.960 --> 01:38:53.200
And that\'s because
they had managed to break me.

01:38:54.240 --> 01:38:55.640
So...

01:38:57.400 --> 01:39:00.680
if I wanted to survive,
I had to get my head together.

01:39:01.600 --> 01:39:05.000
It has changed my perception
of society and people.

01:39:07.000 --> 01:39:10.560
When I meet new people
or start hanging out with people,

01:39:11.320 --> 01:39:14.760
I always believe
that those people are going to...

01:39:15.880 --> 01:39:17.760
hurt me somehow

01:39:17.920 --> 01:39:20.560
and that they\'re aware of it.

01:39:20.720 --> 01:39:23.800
If one of my mates
didn\'t pay for drinks,

01:39:23.960 --> 01:39:26.520
I\'d think
he might be strapped for cash

01:39:26.640 --> 01:39:30.200
or got carried away,
not that he\'s doing it on purpose.

01:39:30.360 --> 01:39:34.600
I automatically think
everyone\'s doing something on purpose,

01:39:34.760 --> 01:39:36.800
that they\'re being calculating...

01:39:38.880 --> 01:39:41.600
and serving their own interests.

01:39:43.240 --> 01:39:47.280
That\'s what stuck with me
from my experience with the police.

01:39:48.000 --> 01:39:52.280
The evil in people
has stayed with you.

01:39:53.280 --> 01:39:56.640
To go through the scariest moment
of your life,

01:39:56.800 --> 01:39:59.960
the worst anxiety,
the most vulnerable moment,

01:40:00.120 --> 01:40:05.400
and even then,
they\'re able to keep pushing.

01:40:08.280 --> 01:40:11.960
With COVID,

01:40:12.840 --> 01:40:16.320
we\'ve constantly
had to have permission to move around.

01:40:16.920 --> 01:40:19.880
I had all kinds of passes,

01:40:20.040 --> 01:40:24.440
copies of all my documents everywhere:
at home, in my bag, in the car...

01:40:24.600 --> 01:40:26.200
and in spite of that,

01:40:26.360 --> 01:40:29.680
it was really hard for me
to leave the house every day.

01:40:29.840 --> 01:40:33.080
I had permission to go to work,

01:40:33.240 --> 01:40:35.680
but I was always scared
that I\'d get stopped.

01:40:35.840 --> 01:40:37.960
There\'s no telling
what would\'ve happened.

01:40:38.760 --> 01:40:42.400
I know that all
they would\'ve asked for is my papers,

01:40:42.560 --> 01:40:45.720
but I know
what goes on under those uniforms.

01:40:45.880 --> 01:40:48.840
I know. I know what lies behind.

01:40:52.760 --> 01:40:55.640
I have two small kids.

01:40:56.680 --> 01:41:01.960
I would play with my son a lot

01:41:02.400 --> 01:41:07.200
and sometimes he\'d put a cushion
or his hand on my mouth...

01:41:08.840 --> 01:41:12.760
and I couldn\'t take it.

01:41:12.920 --> 01:41:15.000
At first, my mind would go blank,

01:41:15.160 --> 01:41:18.280
but I slowly started to be able
to tell him not to do that.

01:41:19.240 --> 01:41:22.080
\"Why?\", he would ask.

01:41:22.240 --> 01:41:25.640
I explained that I\'d been in prison

01:41:25.800 --> 01:41:28.640
and that I\'d had a rough time
with the police.

01:41:29.920 --> 01:41:34.920
He understood and stopped doing it.

01:41:35.640 --> 01:41:39.680
I couldn\'t do it with my daughter.
She\'d put her hand on my mouth

01:41:39.840 --> 01:41:42.880
and I wanted to tell her,
but I couldn\'t.

01:41:43.040 --> 01:41:47.680
She was so cute and small
and I couldn\'t talk to her about it.

01:41:47.840 --> 01:41:51.680
One Sunday afternoon,
after lunch with my family,

01:41:51.840 --> 01:41:54.520
I couldn\'t stay
and went to my room to cry.

01:41:55.720 --> 01:41:57.160
My son Oinatz saw me

01:41:57.320 --> 01:42:01.920
and asked me if I was feeling down
because of the torture.

01:42:04.120 --> 01:42:05.720
I told him I was.

01:42:05.880 --> 01:42:08.160
At that moment, Izaro came in,

01:42:08.320 --> 01:42:11.200
she\'s going to be four soon...

01:42:11.840 --> 01:42:15.200
She asked me what was wrong
and I just collapsed.

01:42:16.760 --> 01:42:20.600
Oinatz saw the situation and said...

01:42:21.920 --> 01:42:24.920
\"The police hurt Daddy\'s heart.\"

01:42:25.760 --> 01:42:28.320
She looked over at Oinatz first
and then me...

01:42:29.360 --> 01:42:31.200
and said:

01:42:31.360 --> 01:42:33.440
\"Don\'t worry, Daddy, just breathe.\"

01:42:36.840 --> 01:42:38.040
Egoitz...

01:42:38.760 --> 01:42:43.040
Oinatz was spot on.
It doesn\'t get any clearer than that.

01:42:43.840 --> 01:42:45.840
Yes, that\'s the best explanation.

01:42:46.360 --> 01:42:49.640
\"What\'s wrong with Daddy?\",
\"Well, his heart hurts.\"

01:42:51.640 --> 01:42:55.520
I\'ll forever be grateful to my son
for that moment.

01:43:04.240 --> 01:43:08.640
The conversation about torture
is still pending with my son

01:43:08.800 --> 01:43:10.640
because I\'m waiting for...

01:43:10.800 --> 01:43:13.120
Since it\'s such a painful thing,

01:43:13.800 --> 01:43:16.200
I still haven\'t sat down with him

01:43:16.360 --> 01:43:18.200
because I\'m waiting for him.

01:43:18.360 --> 01:43:21.000
He\'s probably waiting
so as not to hurt me,

01:43:21.160 --> 01:43:23.520
and I\'m doing it not to...

01:43:23.640 --> 01:43:26.960
There\'ll come a time
where we\'ll be able to talk about it.

01:43:27.560 --> 01:43:29.360
In that same vein...

01:43:30.400 --> 01:43:32.800
I think that torture is something...

01:43:36.120 --> 01:43:37.400
we don\'t talk about.

01:43:39.120 --> 01:43:42.120
Everything that\'s come
from those tortures:

01:43:42.920 --> 01:43:45.560
other arrests, other torture,

01:43:45.720 --> 01:43:47.200
other consequences...

01:43:47.360 --> 01:43:49.680
has created a sense of suffering

01:43:49.840 --> 01:43:52.400
that can\'t be seen.

01:43:53.520 --> 01:43:57.880
And, yes, we\'ve talked about it...

01:43:59.080 --> 01:44:00.560
but we\'ve normalised it.

01:44:02.120 --> 01:44:05.320
Don\'t you think
that we\'re scared of knowing too?

01:44:06.720 --> 01:44:08.440
Scared of knowing?

01:44:09.320 --> 01:44:13.920
Because the way you\'re treated
can be so cruel

01:44:14.080 --> 01:44:17.960
that it can destroy a human being
on the inside,

01:44:18.120 --> 01:44:21.120
leave them feeling
like a wreck, a cockroach,

01:44:21.280 --> 01:44:22.880
so, you also get scared.

01:44:23.040 --> 01:44:26.640
You\'re so scared
of adding to that suffering.

01:44:30.760 --> 01:44:35.040
A few years ago on 13th February,

01:44:35.200 --> 01:44:37.760
they carried out a peaceful campaign

01:44:37.920 --> 01:44:41.520
to raise awareness on torture

01:44:42.080 --> 01:44:45.600
and to explain that it had occurred
in the Basque Country.

01:44:45.760 --> 01:44:50.080
I live in a small town

01:44:50.240 --> 01:44:54.720
and they had plastered quotes
from torture victims...

01:44:56.120 --> 01:44:57.280
all over the place:

01:44:57.440 --> 01:45:00.720
on the walls, bridges, lampposts...

01:45:01.520 --> 01:45:06.000
And when I was taking my kids
to school,

01:45:06.160 --> 01:45:08.760
I started reading the comments.

01:45:08.920 --> 01:45:11.000
I felt so defenceless...

01:45:12.080 --> 01:45:13.720
so small,

01:45:13.880 --> 01:45:16.320
and I went home feeling so dejected.

01:45:19.680 --> 01:45:23.800
I\'m disappointed
that my political environment...

01:45:25.160 --> 01:45:30.920
didn\'t help me one bit
in telling my story.

01:45:32.080 --> 01:45:36.360
Those around me know
that I\'ve been tortured,

01:45:36.520 --> 01:45:37.800
but...

01:45:38.960 --> 01:45:40.760
that was a common thing...

01:45:41.560 --> 01:45:43.760
with all arrests.

01:45:43.920 --> 01:45:47.800
It was assumed
that if you moved around

01:45:48.600 --> 01:45:52.680
in certain political circles,

01:45:52.840 --> 01:45:56.840
that it could happen to you.

01:45:59.920 --> 01:46:04.520
So, each person ends up
putting up a wall

01:46:04.680 --> 01:46:06.440
which also spreads internally.

01:46:07.920 --> 01:46:10.760
You look straight ahead,
suck it up and keep going.

01:46:13.200 --> 01:46:17.040
In my group of friends,

01:46:17.200 --> 01:46:20.960
we all have
different political opinions.

01:46:21.520 --> 01:46:25.560
When I got arrested, one of them said:
\"They\'re torturing Nerea!\",

01:46:25.720 --> 01:46:30.680
to which one of my friends replied:
\"She must\'ve done something.\"

01:46:34.000 --> 01:46:37.800
My dad, for example,
suffered from paranoid psychosis.

01:46:39.200 --> 01:46:43.080
He was diagnosed with it
when I was eight or nine.

01:46:43.840 --> 01:46:45.880
So 20 years
after all of this happened.

01:46:46.520 --> 01:46:49.520
I was very young,
but you pick up on things,

01:46:50.400 --> 01:46:53.840
and when I was eleven or twelve,

01:46:54.000 --> 01:46:56.520
I was aware of what had happened

01:46:56.960 --> 01:46:59.080
and put the pieces together.

01:46:59.240 --> 01:47:03.520
But there was no place
to talk about it.

01:47:03.680 --> 01:47:07.520
I couldn\'t talk to him and didn\'t want
to pressure him either.

01:47:09.040 --> 01:47:10.560
Haizea,

01:47:11.600 --> 01:47:13.680
is it hard for you to ask Iseko?

01:47:14.600 --> 01:47:17.760
Yes, because when I did,
I wouldn\'t get an answer.

01:47:21.400 --> 01:47:23.400
Why didn\'t he talk about it?

01:47:25.800 --> 01:47:28.440
Because saying that...

01:47:29.960 --> 01:47:32.080
I knew I\'d have to tell her.

01:47:32.240 --> 01:47:33.680
I explained it to her:

01:47:33.840 --> 01:47:37.280
\"It\'s not that I didn\'t want
to tell you, I just couldn\'t.\"

01:47:38.520 --> 01:47:41.520
How do you explain all of that
to someone?

01:47:41.680 --> 01:47:43.920
If you start digging too deep...

01:47:45.680 --> 01:47:48.200
you\'ll uncover some ugly truths.

01:47:50.280 --> 01:47:51.880
But, Bego...

01:47:53.320 --> 01:47:55.320
you can talk about it now.

01:47:56.200 --> 01:47:59.240
-This is the time to...
-Yes, I\'m trying.

01:48:01.160 --> 01:48:03.920
Well, whenever you\'re ready.